Can you imagine the horror of this? Vegas

[stickyvicky]

http://wfla.com/2017/10/02/travelers-re ... -shooting/
Sunny got here yesterday and there were reporters at the airport... I can't even wrap my brain around this senseless violence...

[George B]

Sadly I can imagine it all too easily. I was staying at the Luxor in June when I was in Vegas and went for several walks around that particular lot where the shootings occurred. Absolutely gutted.

[hotjulie]

I definitely can't imagine going through that! There was also an attack in Edmonton Saturday night, not nearly the extent that happened in Vegas, but still makes you wonder where your safe. Times like this I'm so glad I live in this tiny little town in northern Alberta

[stickyvicky]

You are right makes you want to run away and hide in the woods.

[catalina2]

"Can I imagine the horror in Las Vegas"? NO. a white, successful, 64 year old male accountant from an upscale retirement community with no significant political or religious views uses a machine gun to murder mostly white country music lovers. yeah, makes total sense. Sidney Pollack, one of my fav actors may he rest in peace, once had a line in a film "people are fucking incomprehensible". maybe it's as simple and complex as that.

[hennar2017]

My heart goes out to all the people in Vegas. Makes you want to grab family and friends and just hug them! Even in a small Iowa town terrible things can happen so I don't think there is a safe place anywhere. But we can't just stop we must go on and try to help in any way we can.

[WalterB]

I know I checked the people I know who live out there, just to get an answer and know they were all right. Even in El Paso, the news stations sent crews out to the airport to interview people arriving from Las Vegas. Personally, I thought that was a bit over the top. How the hell do you THINK people felt? But I guess I understand it. There was one local lady (from Las Cruces, 30 mi up the road,) who was killed, so I guess we had a local touch.

Feelings? I was in LA at the time of the McDonalds shootings (San Diego, 1984, 21 killed, 19 injured,) and in Denver during the Columbine killings (11 kids, 1 teacher killed, 19 injured,) about a mile away.

After McDonalds, I was nervous going into any McDonalds for a couple months. In Denver, I watched all that as it unfolded live, and, knowing it was only a mile away, I got quite nervous.

[Kirstie]

Our school was actually at lock down today for about 2 hours, because there was a shooter nearby...turns out he wasn't after us and it was some domestic dispute, but then again, something could've happened...it was still scary...
I just don't understand the world sometimes...not all people are bad...but some really are...

[sugerdaddy]

I agree with you Kristie, some people are deplorable. Get rid of the gun culture in USA.

[WalterB]

I don't know how you get rid of the culture. Chicago, it is said, has the most restrictive gun laws in the U.S. It also has the highest crime/murder rate in the U.S. It has been said and I agree that "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns."

Not that that hasn't worked in other countries. But those laws have pretty much always been on the books. Trying to start such laws now will only result in confiscation of the guns of law abiding citizens. And they are not the ones causing the trouble. You are not going to solve the problem until you attack the underlying causes of such problems.

And, people like this guy? I have no clue how to protect against people like him. Not on anybody's radar, for any reason. Whatever his problem was, he hid it so well, no one had a clue.

[carl goldfinger]

I agree with Kirstie & Sugardaddy, too. ...&

look at this:

+ some math:

270,000,000 Weapons -> USA 320 Million Citizens -> ca. 30 Dead / Mil = 9600 Dead
9,500,000 Weapons -> Canada 36 Million Citisenz -> ca. 5 Dead / Mil = 180 Dead
25,000,000 Weapons -> Germany 82 Million Citizens -> ca. 2 Dead / Mil = 164 Dead
15,500,000 Weapons -> Mexico 123 Million Citizens -> ca. 100 Dead / Mil = 12,300 Dead
etc...
etc...

The reason why Germany has such a low value is because most owners of weapons are in shooting clubs, where all weapons a secured in special safes.
They only have access when they go for training or an event. They are not allowed to store them at home or carry them in public.
There is almost no direkt access, so no one can pick his gun quickly in case of a sudden freak out.

Back to USA: Every fucking year you are losing a complete town of almost 10,000 people ! This is insane!
Afganistan seems to be a safer place to live...

If you want to get rid of your gun-culture, get rid of the NRA, first.
This is your biggest enemy, more than any terrorists.
Fight them & their representatives of the weapon industrie, as they did it with the cigarette industrie. Collect as much $$$ as you can & sue them.
Make them responsible for a man who bought more than 40 weapons and approx. 1,000 bullets to fire them at innocent people at a festval.
+
Stronger laws for the ownership of weapons... e.g. losing the driver licence because of driving drunk, they lose their weapon licence as well, because they are not reliable anymore.
Store weapons in safes at shooting clubs, as in Germany, to avoid direct access.
etc...
etc...

& the most imortant point: Install a good SOCIAL CARE SYSTEM!
Healthcare, a place to live, & enough food for everyone... The USA is one of the richest countries in the world. Come on!

Or do you want to end-up like the Mexicians, where the poor got nothing to lose anymore & are drowning in a drug war?

The Wild West is gone... we are living in the 21st century...

Just my 2Cents from Germany...

Carl

[stickyvicky]

So what are we actually going to do about it? Nothing? Just send thoughts and prayers? Like that will help or prevent another?

[PeterL22]

I don't know how you get rid of the culture. Chicago, it is said, has the most restrictive gun laws in the U.S. It also has the highest crime/murder rate in the U.S. It has been said and I agree that "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns."

Not that that hasn't worked in other countries. But those laws have pretty much always been on the books. Trying to start such laws now will only result in confiscation of the guns of law abiding citizens. And they are not the ones causing the trouble. You are not going to solve the problem until you attack the underlying causes of such problems.

And, people like this guy? I have no clue how to protect against people like him. Not on anybody's radar, for any reason. Whatever his problem was, he hid it so well, no one had a clue.

Sorry Walt, I have been biting my tongue a bit about this, and I know you guys all feel strongly about your Constitutional Rights, but I really can't understand how one individual can put together an arsenal like that guy. How can anyone justify having all this automatic (sorry if my technical terms are not quite right, but you know what I mean) arms? Think about it logically, why would anyone need automatic or semi-automatic weapons; and have access to them outside of licence shooting ranges?
I think the NRA used to have a slogan along the lines of "Guns don't kill people"
I would say more accurately that"People without guns kill less people"

It won't happen, but you guys need to do something - saying that if Mr Smith doesn't have access to gun , then the streets will be dangerous because only criminals have guns is a fallacy.

[George B]

Peter the Vegas shooter was using semi-automatic rifles outfitted with specialty aftermarket attachments called bump stocks. These bump stocks utilize the recoil effect from each shot to bounce the receiver off a spring located in the stock while the shooter keeps their finger pulled back on the trigger. By design this allows a shooter a high rate of fire similar to a fully automatic rifle. Bump firing semi-automatic rifles without a bump stock is still possible, although this technique is more difficult, less accurate and it beats up your arm. In any case, having experience shooting semi-automatics, I can tell you that it's very easy to achieve high rate of fire without a bump stock or bump firing.

As far as amassing an arsenal, while I am an experienced shooter I can't really speak to that, I don't own guns personally. I have friends who own several guns used for target shooting and hunting. They've invested thousands of dollars into their hobby, some of them tens of thousands. I'm not sure what the answer is, but I agree with you in saying that more guns is not the answer. In this particular instance, having armed civilians in the crowd would have had no positive effect on the situation.

[Davest]

I would say more accurately that"People without guns kill less people"

As a crossover to your education thread, "People without guns kill fewer people," Peter

[WalterB]

England has had it's share of horrific attacks, both with and without guns. So the English don't have a lot to say about how Americans are doing things, beyond sympathy for the losses. Saying "You guys need to do something" is not helpful to anyone. How about all of those horrific attacks in London and in Paris, Peter? I can say it, too. "YOU guys" need to do something. Look to your own back yard before you start accusing or criticizing others. You will notice that, after the attacks (several) in England and Paris and others, no one came on here and started criticizing how they are doing things there.

Despite what many think, simply outlawing guns is not the answer. Knives, pressure cookers and other explosives and, yes, airplanes are all readily available and cannot be outlawed. The only way to address such mindless violence is to address the root causes. You will notice that the phrase "mentally disabled." or some such, always pops up. Not until the world somehow gets a handle on identifying and fixing mental illness will the world stand a chance of ridding itself of the mindless violence we all abhor.

[PeterL22]

England has had it's share of horrific attacks, both with and without guns. So the English don't have a lot to say about how Americans are doing things, beyond sympathy for the losses. Saying "You guys need to do something" is not helpful to anyone. How about all of those horrific attacks in London and in Paris, Peter? I can say it, too. "YOU guys" need to do something. Look to your own back yard before you start accusing or criticizing others. You will notice that, after the attacks (several) in England and Paris and others, no one came on here and started criticizing how they are doing things there.

Despite what many think, simply outlawing guns is not the answer. Knives, pressure cookers and other explosives and, yes, airplanes are all readily available and cannot be outlawed. The only way to address such mindless violence is to address the root causes. You will notice that the phrase "mentally disabled." or some such, always pops up. Not until the world somehow gets a handle on identifying and fixing mental illness will the world stand a chance of ridding itself of the mindless violence we all abhor.

Difference with London attacks - apart from less casualties - is that they didn't use guns.
To be honest there is a simple answer - stop letting ANY individual have the equivalent of hand held WMD - they really do not need them.
Our problem - with Terrorists (generally) is that they use everyday items such as knives and hired vans (we can't do much about that). YOU guys can stop so many guns being available!
Over here, if someone gets shot (even if its crime related) it makes top story on NATIONAL news and is major incident - even if it happens in London, Birmingham or a major city) - over there it comes in lower in the list and is ANOTHER shooting in Phoenix, Boise or wherever.
Give me a good reason why any ordinary member of the public NEEDS to own an Assault rifle?

[WalterB]

If someone gives a monkey a gun and the monkey shoots someone, you don't blame the monkey or the gun. If someone gives a monkey a knife and he stabs someone, you don't blame the monkey and you don't blame the knife. And you don't get wrapped up in numbers, like somehow one or two murders is somehow better than 20 or 30 or 50.

I say again. Mankind has been murdering himself, in numbers both large and small, ever since the world began. Germany took care of citizens having guns. That worked out real good, didn't it?

Again, you are not going to solve this problem until you attack and solve the mental derangement that makes a person think this is acceptable; until you establish ways to identify people who have mental issues, and then get that person the help he needs, this will all continue. And every whiner in the world will stand up and say, "We need to ban guns." Or, "We need to ban knives." Or "We need to ban airplanes." or whatever.

And we will close our eyes to the carnage that continues in our own back yard while we blame everyone else in the world.

[PeterL22]

Still not sure I agree old chap!
Firstly, its a matter of risk reduction - fewer guns (and fewer guns that can fire many rounds per second) = fewer chances to get shot.
In terms of Mental Health - that is the point it is an art NOT a science really. People (no matter how well trained) make assessments of the people and don't always get it right. If you listen to the stock TV interviews with neighbours of serial killers or people who go out on shooting sprees, they all say the same thing "He was a nice quiet chap who kept himself to himself"
Over here the only firearm that you can legally have in your house is a shotgun and you need a licence from the Police to have one. It has changed a bit nowadays, but when I was practising people applying for a shotgun licence used to need to fill in a form and get it signed by a doctor to say that they were not nutters - our surgery refused to sign any at all for the simple fact that even when you know an individual and their health for many years you can never be 100% certain that they won't have a psychotic episode. It just wasn't worth the risk.
I have been to a shooting range in the USA and shot handguns - including a Magnum - and really loved it. For me, I struggle to see why the average guy in the street needs to have a gun outside of a controlled environment.
But we all see things differently, and I realise I am looking from a completely different viewpoint and experience, so am not trying to preach - honest!