So Vicky asked me to post my swinger story....

Don't just read, reply! Start your own threads, don't be shy, likeminded people may appreciate your thoughts! Talk about anything VNA related or not!
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Loismustdie77
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June 16th, 2012, 10:49 pm

118 days ago to the day I reached out via a online Swingers forum to a cute couple that piqued my interest and just let them know that I was interested. (I say I because when it comes to the meet and greets, dates, etc. my wife pretty much has always counted on me to filter through the ones we would have no interest in and the ones we might.) The message I sent was pretty vanilla, just a quick "Your profile looks interesting, check ours out." They did, and they responded, and we messaged back and forth a few times, getting to know each other a bit and figuring out schedules, until we finally came up with a date night. Just for the sake of a time line, date night was set for 79 days ago.

So, we continue to get to know each other and date night rolls around. Let me tell you I am nervous! It had been awhile since we found a couple that I thought had any chance of being a match for us and I really had a good feeling about this one, so I pretty much had all the jitters that you would going on a date for the first time with someone you like. The plan was pretty simple, dinner and drinks on a Friday night, her husband works Friday nights so we had a two hour block of time and they had made it pretty clear there was no play time after first dates so I got my wife and I tickets to a concert afterward, just so I would not be tempted to push, because I will. If I see something I want I will push, every time. Anyway, it's date night and we walk up and they both actually look like there profile photos and better! Just hot, hot, hot, and they immediately say the same about us. The guy is mild mannered and courteous to my wife and the girl has a hot body and the prettiest eyes with a little crazy glint in them and I come out of my fucking shoes for that, but for this night I am determined to keep my damn shoes on so I play it cool baby.

It was a really good date! Just your basic getting to know each other, feeling each other out, watching reactions to stories told, etc., and it all went really well. Everyone seemed to get along and be on the same page as far as what we were looking for. They both had been married a very long time, and so have we so I liked that, they had been in this game for way longer and that was a bit intimidating but nothing I didn't think I could handle. Looking back it was very much like a first date where it's basically fact finding but no one is giving away the farm in terms of if anyone is really into the other, but let me tell you I was into that girl. If I had had my way that night I would have had her on that fucking table. So, the night winds down, we all decide to say our goodbyes and definitely find a time to get together again soon. They walk us halfway to our car, me walking with her and him walking with my wife. We all stop to talk and and say bye real quick and the wife gives me a hug, and just kind of stays there, saying she likes how I hug, just little sweet things, and then I do something I never do,and to this day I still can't tell you exactly why I went this route: I asked her if I could kiss her. I never do this, my style has always been take what I want, not ask for what I want. She said I could kiss her if I wanted, so I did, and we did, and it was a really good kiss....instant connection. She will tell you that was the moment she knew I was into her because I had done a very good job of hiding it during dinner. Anyway, a really good kiss, and I am hooked. I leave telling myself "I am gonna do that again."

My wife and I spent the rest of the night talking about how awesome this new couple is, barely even payed attention at the concert, and to add a little flavor we met up with another couple from the website at the concert and they had no shot, not after what we just met. They were nice enough I guess but really I had....we will call her Amanda to protect the innocent, Amanda was definitely on my mind. Could not wait to meet her again and we are texting back and forth and it turns out, they are going to a meet and greet the next night, and would we like to go? Oh, and by the way we already rented a room for the night so bring a overnight bag just in case.

Hell to the fuck yeah. :excited:

Are you kidding? Of course we want to go. So, we cancel a plan we had, and decide to go to this meet and greet to meet up with them, and some of there swinger pals. Next night rolls around and the meet and greet is like any other, some people talking and connecting and alot just milling about doing nothing, but the connection is still there, we all look pretty fucking hot together, all there friends are hot as well so we have a few beers and talk for awhile, still feeling each other out. There is some kissing here and there, I am pretty much glued to Amanda from the get go and my wife to her husband....lets call him Scott....she is glued to him as well. All good things if I am to get what I want, right? Things are going swimmingly, and we all decide it's time to go to the hotel....


I will end there for now, I have to make dinner for the kids. I can promise you guys a story that is well worth the listen, but there is alot of ground to cover so I will need to break it up into pieces. This last 79 days have been the absolute craziest of my life by far. I would love for this to be interactive so ask questions!! I will answer anything,I am an open book especially on a forum where no one knows my name.
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Loismustdie77
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June 17th, 2012, 1:58 am

Alright, kids are fed, where were we? Okay, so we go to the hotel. I am a little pensive, there are six couples and we have never done group, not on any level. But, I talk to the wife and she seems okay, and as long as shes okay and I at least put on an okay face she will continue to be okay. So, we march on. Things start out slow, just kind of having a drink or two, then a few of the girls get into a tub to "warm up." That goes on for about a half hour, then everyone moves into one of the rooms in this suite. Now, I find out later that when Amanda and Scott made the move to go into the room and grabbed our hands that they meant for it be only us but that's not what happened, the whole pack came along.

An eye opening experience to be sure, but outside of the occasional squirting action that I am just not used too it was really pretty mellow. I did a lot of observing, specifically making sure my wife was okay (she was, she was basically the knew girl in town and very much the flavor of the night) and observing Amanda. I joined in quite a bit as well, but I probably got the most pleasure out of just watching my wife and Amanda. Amanda is incredible, watching her confidence and sexy aura as she works a room is just an absolute turn on for me. Too be honest I don't think that anything that happened in particular is all that different from any group porno scene any of us have ever seen, it was just real life. The interesting part if that my wife and I were completely comfortable with anything and everything and fun was had by all. Now, here is where it takes a different turn....

The night is basically over. Everyone is tired, Amanda is done, my wife is done, everyone is done, and Amanda and I are in a room just talking by ourselves, about how great the night went, how glad we are that we all met and how great it is that we all feel so comfortable, and before you know it we are kissing, and then we are fucking. Except it wasn't normal swinger fucking, very intimate, very close, slow, looking into each others eyes, etc.....looking back it was as close as you could get to making love under the circumstances. Just completely out of the blue, and unexpected experience, and when it was over we all said our goodbyes and promised that yes, we would be there at there house party in 20 days. Absolutely.

Too be blunt I was really messed up about it. That experience was so deep and so intense that I just couldn't get it out of my head, and I actually reached out to Vicky about a week later to ask for her advice, and do you know what she said? Exactly what she should say...run. As fast as you can, just run. This is not what swinging is supposed to be. What did I do? The opposite. The exact opposite. 20 days goes by and party rolls around...

And that connection is still fucking there!!! It's there immediately as we kiss!! FUUUUUUCCCCKKK!!! Party pgets into full "swing" and Amanda is doing her thing but not with me. She consistently throughout the night would come back to me and say "Are you saving some? Don't forget you're dessert." It was kind of cute and sexy and hot and all kinds of things all rolled into one. Party starts winding down and I am in fact dessert. My wife and I go up to Amanda and Scotts room and we close the door, its about 12 AM at this point. The play starts the 4 of us, all on the same bed, that lasts about 20 minutes and Amanda and I go to a different room, and proceed to do the same thing we did at the hotel. Can I say again...

FUUUUUUUUCCCCKKKKKK!!!!

6 HOURS LATER ...after all kinds of talking and getting to know each other and just the sweatiest sex session I have ever had, we finally go to sleep and I am absolutely 100% hooked on this girl. Just hooked, and maybe even head over heel at this point I just can't say for sure, all I know is whatever this is its intense as anything I have ever experienced. Just an unbelievable connection and we have so much in common and the feeling is...surreal. Unreal. I feel like I already know her and whats more we act like it, the comfort level is just off the charts. If I was fucked up after that first night you can imagine how I felt after that night. So, morning comes and we leave, and its back to normal life.

Now, keep in mind we live an hour from them so seeing them on a regular basis is just not an option but we make a plan too see them again in about 3 weeks. Amanda and I are now texting each other regularly, and my wife and Scott are doing the same. We all get along fabulously, and 5 days goes by and 3 weeks is just gonna be way to long for Amanda so we set up a meet for a late Friday night after my wife gets off of work. We make the drive that Friday and I am just a ball of nerves- what if this is all in my head? Exactly what the fuck is going on, why is this woman living in my head right now? Is this time going to be the same as last time? What if it's not? God I want it to be!! Just all kinds of shit, and guess what?

It was exactly the same and more. The connection and the little thing we are building between Amanda and I, and really the 4 of us is 100% out of this world. Another marathon night of sex....too give you and idea of how much action I am getting between these sessions and the amount of sex I am getting from my wife as well when we met 79 days ago I was at 230, by this point I am probably at about 220 or so and I am now down to 200, and I haven't worked out in months. Suffice to say that I am pushing myself at every turn, at this point in this whole thing I am basically maintaining a girlfriend (we are actually at this point calling it girlfriend and boyfriend) and a wife. Most days I go till I pass out.

So, everyone is happy, why not push the envelope? Scott and I talk and we decide to set up a swap night that they don't know about. None of us have ever done this, gonna meet up at a restaurant and then hand the girls overnight bags and say "Go have fun with him baby!" Now, we tried to keep this secret but they ended up figuring it out...at least the part about us meeting up. They had no idea that we were throwing in the swap twist, and that was one of the most fun things ever. The expression on the girls face when we told them was priceless. They were down, so off we go.

Honestly that night deserves its own long ass story, just an incredible night. Suffice to say that everyone has a great time, Amanda and I take things even farther (unprotected- her reasoning "I should be able to fuck my boyfriend without a condom") and we also decide that when we meet the other two in the morning we need to approach them and talk to them about making this an open relationship. Because of everyones weird schedules we need to make it okay that if any of the "couples" have some free time, we should be able to take advantage of it, no jealousy, no keeping score, just take advantage of the time we can free up as much as we can. Somewhere in there someone mentioned that we should be exclusive, which at this point we are all doing just havent said it out loud. To my surprise....

THEY GO FOR IT!! and,to Amanda and I's great pleasure, at breakfast the next morning they are doing what we do. Hand in hand. Stroking hair. Getting close. At this point we are so deep that it's imperative that they follow suit or in our minds we can't keep going. But, here we are and they are!! They so are!! So, schedules are looked at and Amanda and I are up first for a date night, not all that far away.

I am this point just madly in love with this girl but not really struggling with it as much as you would think. I have always felt that one could love more than one, specifically me, I am a multi-tasker at heart and love being busy, and it kind of plays into my strengths. Where I am struggling is I AM NOT SUPPOSED TO FALL IN LOVE WITH THIS GIRL. Thats game over in this game, it just is. So, I just tell myself that it's okay that I love her, that I will be okay, that it will be okay, and hell maybe she even loves me and she can't say it either. Who knows? I do know one thing.... I still love my wife (We will call her Jennifer) very much and that isn't going anywhere. So, this love that I feel for this girl will just have to fit.

Our first separate date night rolls around, she arrives at the hotel and right away I know something is wrong, something is on her mind. She sits me down and basically tells me so, and then proceeds to tell me that she loves me without telling me. It was really cute and kind of heartbreaking to watch her dance around the subject, but she is telling me that she hasn't felt this way since her husband, and we talk about how it's okay and that we both believe you can love more than one and remember, this is our thing, our rules. (We say that a lot) We just can't say THAT. Can we? I can't stand it, so word for word...I say....

"In the interest of continuing to be fearless in the this relationship I can tell you without a doubt that I am head over heel s in love with you." Then I held my breath and waited, because guess what? This may be over. Right now. She said...

"Why did you say that?" but her tone and eyes belied the words, and you could see the fear just melt. She was so afraid that I would not be able to face it or reciprocate, she was terrified. Maybe one of the coolest moments ever. She of course said I love you as well, alot, and we had another amazing night. The next morning we of course told our spouses exactly what happened. Mines reaction was this: "I could have told you you were in love with her," and guess what....she is on the same road with Scott. This is starting to get really interesting. Really, really interesting. What are the chances? What are the chances that we all meet and all connect like this? Amanda and I talk about that alot and it's got to be astronomical but we are all open to trying to work together to make these relationships work, help them to grow, baby them. Truthfully its actually been quite easy, so easy in fact...after a few more date nights for all of us.....

After much discussion,we decide to go it as a family in one big house. After doing a few family days where the kids all meet (those went perfect) we set a date for move in. That was just this past Wednesday. The house is still a mess in some spots.We are all tired. I am lucky in that I have a month off of work right now but everyone else is still working through all of this. So far, so good though. So far so really fucking good. There is a certain sense of satisfaction and peace that I have every morning knowing that everything I care most about is under one roof. Just an absolute sense of peace, and being able to see my two favorite girls every day and kiss them and hug them and love them is just priceless.

Look, we know that on some level this is just pure craziness. Most people will not get this this at all and most would never even dream of attempting it, but this is something my wife and I have talked about for the longest time, if we could find the right people how awesome would it be?? It's not going to come without sacrifice- hell, my mom has said she will never talk to me again. Pretty brutal really, and that day was probably one of the worst of my life, but what am I to do? I feel how I feel and I want the life that I want. We will have to know when to tone it down and know when it's okay to be "us" and that's not always fun. It's hard to be involved with something that you think is so amazing but you can't share it, really hard. The number one thing we said right off the bat is no matter what, if something is bothering any of us say that shit out loud, to the group if its about the group or to the supposed offender because in this life there is no room for things to fester and the time we have together should be about love and fun. All love and fun. We have said that we will approach it as a marriage, both between the "opposite" couples but also the marriage of the 4 of us is its own dichotomy as well and needs to be maintained. So many angles, so many challenges. I can't wait to see what the future holds. I just know that if I get to experience it surrounded by these two amazing women and my new brother in crime, I will have a life that would be the envy of many if they only fucking knew.

So, thats the story. Like I said before I will answer any and all questions and I will also post things that I find interesting about the situation in this thread. I can't imagine that there will not be some pretty juicy stuff pretty quick. :blushing:
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Loismustdie77
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June 19th, 2012, 1:12 pm

So, about 6 days in and it's been interesting so far. It was kind of a weird week to start for a few reasons. One, I am off of work for a month, so my availability for fun and whatever is basically 100%. Two, my wife and Scotts schedule have been the opposite, they have been loaded down with work, which has been a bummer for them. Amanda had vacation time saved up so we have spent a lot of time together, which has been great, amazing really, but we have had to *quickly!* learn to be careful and not let others feel neglected or left out. Not an easy task.

One of the very few "rules" we had laid out as we were considering doing this was "Take advantage of the time you have." That could mean the 4 of us, my wife and I, Scott and Amanda, or it could mean Amanda and I and my wife and Scott, whatever, just when you have time, take advantage, especially if you WANT too. This is not a situation for the timid. Now, Amanda and I are good at this, we have been from the moment we met. We try and make every minute count, and we have. The fact is though in our minds we just think the other two haven't. We kind of saw this coming and we talked about it quite a bit, and what she and I came up with is we would just lead by example, and they would follow suit. That's the nice way of putting it, the way we said it was "We're going to do what the fuck we like to do and if they don't come along for the ride that's on them." One of those things sound harsher than the other.

So, a few days in and the other two are not following suit, at least not the way we think they should be, and they have a myriad of reasons for this so what we ended up doing is while my wife was at work the three of us sat down and just talked about it. Basically what it comes down to is Scott, who is usually aggressive, is turning down his aggression to match my wife's slower passive pace, the problem with that is, from experience that just doesn't work. You have to take control and she will follow, if you try and match her it would be Christmas before anything happened, especially in the bedroom. There is more to it than just how much those two are connecting in the bedroom, little (but big) things like how we act in front of the kids is huge. Amanda and I will hold hands, a little kissing here and there, basically paint a clear picture for them that in those moments we are definitely being close, we have done that for awhile now and the kids have responded well. Our theory is that we make it seem completely natural, like it's exactly how it should be, and kids need that. If we were jumpy and hiding that would be much, much worse. Meanwhile, Scott and Jennifer just don't, not really, and Amanda and I just think it's a bad move because the longer they wait the weirder it will seem for the kids. So, when we talked we stressed that they need to up there game in that area as well, especially since we both know they WANT to. Don't be afraid, just take what you want.

You know what? Yesterday was our first day where everyone had the day off and they did just that, and the kids responded well. It was a great day, we all found time and ways to "connect" throughout the day and I woke up this morning next to Amanda. It was a really good day and night. A really, really good day and night. Now, time to start another one!!
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Loismustdie77
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June 28th, 2012, 11:45 am

So, an update for you all. Things have been going really well. Basically since the last post we had one more conversation,this time with the 4 of us, about the speed of my wife and Amandas husband, and we just aired some stuff out and it was good. One thing in particular that I think my those two needed to here was that Amanda and I can't continue to be uber aggressive if they are not showing us they are at least somewhere not too far behind, because Amanda feels a little guilty for one, and also very vulnerable. Her and I are really close, really close, and she just doesn't want to have to deal with the possibility, however slim, that one day the other two come to us and say "Were just not where you're at and you two need to stop." That would be devastating for her, and for me. Obviously not something we want, the scary thing is since there are 4 of us in this the hard truth is on some level it's out of our control.

They needed to hear that because they have always said that the way Amanda and I act really drives them and gives them the courage to try and do the same. We set the pace. So, once they heard that we would dial it back if they didn't start showing us a little something...they showed us a little something. More affection, more purpose....for example, when I or Amanda come home from anything, we both find both our significant others to say hi real quick. Order doesn't matter, if I see my wife first I give her a kiss and say hi, hows your day going, whatever, then I go find Amanda for the same thing. Every time we do that, but the other two weren't doing that. Now, they are. Making separate plans together,showing more affection, just doing those little things that it takes to build a relationship. Basically what we do, and what we want them to do, is act like this is a situation where you just moved in and it's just the two, not 4- how would you act? Would you accept that your schedules are weird and do nothing to even give yourself a chance at some time together or would you make attempts to align your schedules and make time? Obviously you would make time, especially when it's new, that has to be done or it dies like any other "normal" relationship would and should. I can confidently say now I think that they are doing that and I think that we made it through that "rough patch" relatively unscathed.

So, whats far more interesting is this is day 15 and since we moved in I have not slept in the same bed as my wife. Every night has been Amanda, and that has been...nice. Really nice. One of the things we loved from date nights we would have was the waking up together, we just have such a good time and are so relaxed and into each other that we have really great mornings. Now, it's not going to stay this way, once my sabbatical is up and I go back to work at most we will have 3,4 nights a week at most, my schedule is just weird. We (my wife and I) also go on vacation next week to visit some relatives, so that will be a break of sorts, and we are really looking forward to the anticipation of seeing each other again..we go to California this coming Saturday, from there next Thursday night/early Friday morning we go to Vegas for a 3 day stay at The Wynn with Amanda and Scott, and Amanda has already called dibs on the car ride from the airport to the hotel to be the ones in the backseat fucking. (Dibs rules, very playgroundy, but no forever dibs and no takebacksies. You dibs one girl and she ends up getting a headache thats your bad.) To be honest after basically 5 days of not seeing each other at all I don't think that Friday we will leave the room except for a late dinner and maybe play on the strip a bit Friday night, and then we will sleep in Saturday and go from there. We got some really nice rooms at The Wynn so we will definitely take advantage of some of the luxuries Vegas has to offer and enjoy each other, one last bash before all 4 of us are back at work and into a "normal" routine.

So, after 15 days very happy. I did have a little bit of a panicky moment 2 nights ago, Amanda and I were watching TV in my room and it just hit me that I am now settled in, and now I have this woman who is counting on me to be something more, for her. I already had one and I got that down and now I have two, and she wants much of the same things as the first. She wants me to give everything I can, like she does, and that's a daunting task. The panicky moment was just a momentary realization that on some level the path has been chosen and for me there is no turning back, I will give it everything I have got and then some, and I know what that entails, and I expect to just be worn out, mentally and physically, but I can do this. You know what helps make it easier? Little things like this story from last night: I always wear a silver necklace, even to bed, and Amanda used to like to grab onto it at various times when were being intimate, and she would say one word, "Mine." It was really cute, and I loved when she would do that, but she hasn't, not for a few weeks, I can't remember the last time she did that, so I asked her why she doesn't do that anymore, and this was her response: "Because back then I couldn't tell you that I loved you, that was my way of telling you. Now, I get to say I love you." That was so sweet and made me feel so good, I can't describe it, suffice to say that I love it and her and those little moments will help me be strong in times where maybe I wouldn't be.

Thats enough for now, next time I will probably write about kids and the adjustment that it's been in going from 1 to 3, and also the adjustment of going from date nights at hotels where we are the only focus to taking care of kids and just hoping they go to sleep and don't need anything else so we can spend some time.
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stickyvicky
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June 28th, 2012, 11:48 pm

I can't believe no one has posted on this yet? Is everyone afraid? You should be. It's a hellova story. I would have written sooner, but it was such a long read, I had to find some quiet time to sit down and absorb it.

You already know how I feel about this. You are going down a very dangerous road. You will likely hate me for what I say, but I have to be honest. You have a wife and children that are supposed to be the most important thing in your life. You are taking a huge risk in destroying your family. It's just not worth it. Sex is just sex. You are lucky your wife is into swinging and you can have all the sex you want. With probably anyone you want. Isn't that enough? If you are greedy it will backfire.

I know 3 couples personally that tried what you are doing and it ended in heartbreak. One of the ladies was/is a close personal friend. After 20 years of marriage her husband ran away with half of the couple they were swinging with. She was devastated and I hurt for her seeing what she went through. Not just emotional pain but financial pain as well.

Another couple I know, his wife left him for the other man in the foursome. They got too close and intimate. Feelings took over, they did personal one on one time instead of keeping it a group activity. My friend started drinking heavily when his wife left and he never stopped. He's gotten quite a few DUI's and his life is really in the toilet. He still loves his wife deeply and has never gotten over it. The worst thing is that the swinging was all his idea too. His health and finances have seriously suffered too. I don't think he will ever recover.

I'm so scared for you Louis. I really hope you all live happily ever after, I really do. But I strongly feel that intimacy and sharing your dreams can only be with your soulmate. Sex is just sex, it's like masturbation. Don't confuse it with love.

I also don't think it's good for the kids. How confusing to see their daddy holding hands and kissing with some woman that now lives with them that is not their mom? Why do the kids need to know about it? Is it necessary? Can't you cool it around them? It's already strange enough 2 families living together. How old are all these kids? How many of them? How do you explain it to them if you break up with this other couple? You have to think long and hard about all the possible outcomes even if you don't want to.

Not what you wanted to hear I know.... You are a very intelligent person, but I think the wrong head is in control right now......

Anyone else have any thoughts on this?
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vectis
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June 29th, 2012, 6:54 am

Sadly Louis I agree with Vicky,it's taken me along time to read your story and attempt to understand it,and frankly I don't. We don't all want the same things from life , but I think that you are out on a limb and the outcome will be a big fall.
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WalterB
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June 29th, 2012, 11:31 am

Well, LMD, I guess it's time I threw my :twocents: into the fray. But I'm willing to bet you won't like what I have to say, either.

I find numerous problems in what you are engaging in. Keep in mind, these are my opinions. I am not an expert, a licensed psychologist, or anyone except a guy who has experienced life, who, like you, knows what he wants. No one has ever said that I have all the answers or even that the answers I have are the right ones. But I have spent years listening. I listen much more than I talk. And a person learns by listening. I have listened to other people, I have read newspapers and magazines, I have read suggested reports, and I have lived my life. I have been married and I have been single. So, hopefully, I have learned something.

LMD, I think you are leading yourself down the Primrose Path. Several things in your story point in that direction. First, Jennifer and Scott are not progressing at the same pace as you and Amanda. That right up front should tell you something. Why not? Most likely because they are not into this at the same level you are. You convinced your wife, reluctantly, I feel, to join you in this escapade. She agreed to try it out, but finds that she is not into it to the same level that you are. She is pretending interest because she loves you and loves her children and loves her family. But, down inside, she finds that she is not happy and wants out. But she continues because she loves you and wants her marriage to work. And, from Scotts slow response? He very well may feel the same.

You and Amanda, on the other hand, have let it get out of control. The illicitness of the situation was exciting; fucking a person not your spouse. But, instead of keeping it in context, you both let it get out of control. You should have stopped the very moment that you felt that you cared more for each other than you should.

You also have children involved. Come on, LMD, do you honestly feel that this is the right and proper way to raise children? If word of this got to the proper authorities, all of the children involved would be removed from your care and placed in foster care - by the courts. And do not, for a second, think that they (the children) do not know what is going on. And, do not for a second think that you are not scarring them - possibly for life!

While I realise that there are many married couples that are involved with sexual escapades with other couples (one VNA lady, for example,) they do not let it take over their lives. You have gotten emotionally involved, which is a no-no for clubs and groups that pursue a hedonistic lifestyle. Your only action is to shut down this relationship now. I guarantee you, it will not end well. It will end badly. You will hurt yourself, you will hurt your wife, and you will hurt your children, very possibly losing their love for the rest of your life. You have all ready gone too far to take any of it back. You must get out now and cut your losses, or suffer the consequences.

That's my honest opinion. :walt:
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June 29th, 2012, 11:50 am

Just the fact that from the second you moved in together, you have slept 15 straight days with Amanda? How must this make your wife feel? I'm guessing she's sleeping with the other guy, but would she have chosen to do that? Or is she just basically taking the leftovers to make you happy? Why not just sleep with Amanda every 2nd or 3rd night? You just abandoned your wife from the getgo. Remember your wife? The one you fell in love with? The one you married for thick and thin, sickness and health? The mother of your children and the one you are to grow old with?
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June 29th, 2012, 12:39 pm

VNA,

Our experiences and friends with married swingers have been that over 80% have ended up wrecking marriage relations. Sounds erotic when we fantasize about new sex experiences before the relationships get in the way.

As some know, we are not prudes and all for GG fun. Marriage or "Matrimony" is a spiritual relationship.

Vicky knows best! :trophy

All are better to watch lots of porn on the VNA and let others swing.

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June 29th, 2012, 1:31 pm

No I have nothing against swinging if all can be objective about it. It can be a great thing as long as you have boundaries and limits.
It needs to stay physical and not emotional. You have emotional ties to your life partner and no one else. Once you cross the lines or the lines are blurred you are basically cheating in my opinion. I could watch Dave fuck another girl or girls all day long and not get jealous, it would only turn me on. But if I caught him sitting with a girl in a car, snuggling, telling secrets, sharing himself, talking about his goals and dreams and deepest thoughts, I would freak out and it would be over. That is why you should always swing together, not apart. If the whole point of it, is because you love your partner so much, you want your partner to enjoy every thing they possibly can in life and try everything they want to try, then why wouldn't you want to be there to see it? It is something you do together, to add onto what you already have. Not to replace something else, or add something you don't have. Am I making sense?
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June 29th, 2012, 4:30 pm

Alright, so busy day today but this is all good stuff so I wanted to throw a few things out there real quick. First point, and I think it's key, is this is just not swinging any more. What were attempting is more polyamory, which to be honest I can't really find a whole lot about outside of a Wikepedia page, a few books here and there and a few websites. (Incidentally I plan on changing that.) Second point, and I will just be throwing out answers here to different things that were said, but second point, kids have been good, really good. Them seeing things here and there is just unavoidable, unless we want to sneak around all day until it's bed time, and then be exhausted because we were trying to hide. Our approach has been talking first, the two eldest who are 11 know that we are all very close and will be treating each other like boyfriend and girlfriend. They have had specific questions about sleeping arrangements and stuff like that and we just tell them we all enjoy each others company. I know for me, with my daughter I just wanted her to know that everything is okay, and she could ask anything, but above all I did not want to hide, I think that then paints a picture when we inevitably get caught that what were doing is wrong. 3rd, as far as the 15 days straight, I can only go by what my wife says, when she says she expected that to happen and it's perfectly fine. My view on that is it should be fine as long as Scott is taking care of her needs, which as far as I can tell he has been. (Ultimately we would like to make it to where the comfort level is so high that it really doesn't matter who sleeps with who, needs will be taken care of regardless.) 4th, as far as it ending badly....statistically probable, but those same numbers apply to a "normal" marriage as well. I do look at all the angles and I do see the danger for sure, but I also know that if we can pull this off, what a life. I can tell you this, I would never leave my wife, and Amanda would never leave her husband, and I don't think my wife and Scott would do it either, the most likely scenario for all of us in a "bad" scenario is we all just part ways because it didn't work out between the 4 of us.

This is all great feedback by the way, and I will get more in depth later. Thanks all for your input for sure, I look forward to more interesting conversation.
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June 29th, 2012, 4:31 pm

That is a good way to put it - "Swinging" is all about the physical pleasure. If done correctly, there is no emotional bond. At the end of the day, you, husband and wife, go home together and there is no thought of other people or couples. If you follow and nurture an emotional bond, you are "cheating."
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Loismustdie77
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June 29th, 2012, 4:38 pm

WalterB wrote:Well, LMD, I guess it's time I threw my :twocents: into the fray. But I'm willing to bet you won't like what I have to say, either.

I find numerous problems in what you are engaging in. Keep in mind, these are my opinions. I am not an expert, a licensed psychologist, or anyone except a guy who has experienced life, who, like you, knows what he wants. No one has ever said that I have all the answers or even that the answers I have are the right ones. But I have spent years listening. I listen much more than I talk. And a person learns by listening. I have listened to other people, I have read newspapers and magazines, I have read suggested reports, and I have lived my life. I have been married and I have been single. So, hopefully, I have learned something.

LMD, I think you are leading yourself down the Primrose Path. Several things in your story point in that direction. First, Jennifer and Scott are not progressing at the same pace as you and Amanda. That right up front should tell you something. Why not? Most likely because they are not into this at the same level you are. You convinced your wife, reluctantly, I feel, to join you in this escapade. She agreed to try it out, but finds that she is not into it to the same level that you are. She is pretending interest because she loves you and loves her children and loves her family. But, down inside, she finds that she is not happy and wants out. But she continues because she loves you and wants her marriage to work. And, from Scotts slow response? He very well may feel the same.

You and Amanda, on the other hand, have let it get out of control. The illicitness of the situation was exciting; fucking a person not your spouse. But, instead of keeping it in context, you both let it get out of control. You should have stopped the very moment that you felt that you cared more for each other than you should.

You also have children involved. Come on, LMD, do you honestly feel that this is the right and proper way to raise children? If word of this got to the proper authorities, all of the children involved would be removed from your care and placed in foster care - by the courts. And do not, for a second, think that they (the children) do not know what is going on. And, do not for a second think that you are not scarring them - possibly for life!

While I realise that there are many married couples that are involved with sexual escapades with other couples (one VNA lady, for example,) they do not let it take over their lives. You have gotten emotionally involved, which is a no-no for clubs and groups that pursue a hedonistic lifestyle. Your only action is to shut down this relationship now. I guarantee you, it will not end well. It will end badly. You will hurt yourself, you will hurt your wife, and you will hurt your children, very possibly losing their love for the rest of your life. You have all ready gone too far to take any of it back. You must get out now and cut your losses, or suffer the consequences.

That's my honest opinion. :walt:









Wanted to address this directly real quick, just to say this....what? There is nothing in the law that states you can't kiss someone other than your wife in front of your kid which is all they see, it's not like we are anywhere close too fucking willy nilly or even anywhere close too heavy petting.

As far as my wife and Scott not being as into it, thats never been the case, they are just slower, and my wife never would have agreed to move in (an hour from her friends and also transferring her job) just so I could fuck Amanda, not in a million years. Truthfully they are just slower paced.

As far as Amanda and I out of control, well, yeah. We all are. Absolutely,I would not have it any other way. I don't want to control how I feel I just want to feel. My whole life outside the past 5 years has been about control, I would rather die than go back to that. (I will share about that later.)
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June 29th, 2012, 4:44 pm

You go right ahead and share whatever you want. I won't be revisiting this topic. And I feel for your innocent children.
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June 29th, 2012, 5:02 pm

Please Walt don't get upset over it. It's a big world, lots of different cultures and lifestyles out there. We don't have to agree but we can be open minded enough to listen. Personally I find it fascinating. He is right, this has nothing to do with swinging any more. It may have started out as that, but it has completely morphed into something else. Other than Mormons I don't know who else practices polygamy. Although the Mormons have only one husband not two, lol... Would love to hear more Louis. What will your children say at school? That they have 2 moms and 2 dads?
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June 29th, 2012, 5:03 pm

From www.howstuffworks.com
Today, most Americans think of monogamy as the "normal" form of marriage. But as it turns out, strictly monogamous practices are in the minority. In fact, cultures that practice some form of polygamy outnumber monogamous cultures by the hundreds [ref]. Some critics suggest that the Western practice of frequent divorce and remarrying represents a form of serial polygamy, though most anthropologists consider it serial monogamy -- no one gets married to more than one person at one time.
The Nyinba people of Nepal practice fraternal polyandry. Polyandry is a form of polygamy in which one woman has multiple husbands. In Nyinbian culture, when a woman marries a man, she marries all of his brothers, too. All of the brothers have equal sexual access to the wife, and the entire family cares for the children, although the family may recognize individual brothers as the specific father of a given child [ref]. This kind of marriage structure concentrates the wealth and resources of all the brothers into one family, and also concentrates their parents' land and wealth.
Polygyny, on the other hand, rewards males who have access to greater wealth and resources than others. It takes a lot of work and money to support a large number of wives and the children they produce. In biological terms, such a man is an excellent choice for reproducing and passing his genes on to the next generation, which could be expected to be similarly successful. A man can father many children in a short period, while a woman is limited to one pregnancy every nine months. If a successful man has many wives, he can pass on his genes more often. This is also an advantage in societies where rapid and frequent reproduction is vital for survival. Early Jewish doctrine encouraged polygyny because Jews were a minority and needed to increase their numbers rapidly. Some orthodox Jewish sects advocate polygyny today, and some scholars believe that the Talmud contains passages suggesting tolerance or even encouragement of polygyny.
Islamic tradition addresses polygamy directly. The Koran states that a man is allowed up to four wives, but only if he can support them and treat them all equally. Many Islamic societies continue to allow polygamy, but usually only the most affluent men can afford multiple wives. Westernization has led many younger Muslims to view polygamy as old-fashioned.
In Vietnam, polygamy is not legal, but there's a practical reason for its practice -- decades of war has left the male population severely depleted. Polygamy was also common in China before Confucianism, which supported the practice, fell out of favor. Many African tribes, Native American tribes and pre-Christian Celts practiced polygamy, often without the conservative restraints on the sexual aspects of it that characterize Mormon polygamy [ref].
Next, we'll look at the Mormons, polygamy and the United States legal system.
MORE ON POLYANDRY AND POLYAMORY, BIGAMY AND "SWINGERS"
While polyandry is rare, societies that allow both multiple husbands and multiple wives is even rarer. The Amazon Zoe tribe is a notable example of this practice.
Polygamy is often confused with polyamory and bigamy. Bigamy occurs when one man illegally marries more than one woman. He might marry a second wife before his divorce is complete, for example. In rare cases, men have carried on double lives, marrying two women and supporting two families, with neither wife knowing about the other. Practicing polygamy in a country with laws that forbid it is technically bigamy.
Polyamory is the concept of being in love with more than one person at one time. Polygamists practice polyamory, but polyamorists don't necessarily practice polygamy. They may have living arrangements in which multiple adults form one family, share economic burdens, care for children and share sexual access with one another. However, they do not usually attempt to form a legal marriage. The line between a polyamorous family and a polygamist family is a fine one. Although broad generalizations always have exceptions, polyamorists tend to have communal, liberal views, while polygamists generally come from conservative religious backgrounds.
Swingers are married people who openly engage in sex with people other than their spouses. They don't generally form lasting relationships beyond friendships, nor do they form family structures: the focus is on sex alone.
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Loismustdie77
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June 29th, 2012, 6:14 pm

stickyvicky wrote:Please Walt don't get upset over it. It's a big world, lots of different cultures and lifestyles out there. We don't have to agree but we can be open minded enough to listen. Personally I find it fascinating. He is right, this has nothing to do with swinging any more. It may have started out as that, but it has completely morphed into something else. Other than Mormons I don't know who else practices polygamy. Although the Mormons have only one husband not two, lol... Would love to hear more Louis. What will your children say at school? That they have 2 moms and 2 dads?

I apologize if it upset you Walt, not my intention at all. I have already had to make that same apology to my own mom when she basically disowned me and asked if she could have my kid. I of course about came unglued but I kept my composure and thanked her kindly. What I am finding is that it is a big, big world and while some things are black and white there is a whole lot of grey area.

Its funny you mention Mormons, where we live in AZ is right in the heart of Mormon AZ, we are surrounded by them, and while I don't know of any polygamists in our area what we are attempting is a spin on it in some ways, except from a religious p.o.v. for them its more about prolific procreation, and we are doing everything we can to not have more kids, lol.

We have wondered what the kids will say at school, what we would like for them to say is that they have a mom and a dad and they live with someone else who they look at as a mom and dad. I would guess they will say something close to that, I expect over time, and probably quickly as the two eldest approach teens, they will put 2 and 2 together, and at that point we will answer harder questions.

That's a good link you posted Vicki, there are all kinds of ways to live and love. I know speaking just purely from my p.o.v., what I do with Amanda has not impacted how I feel about my wife at all. It most certainly does fulfill a whole different side as far as desires go, my wife is very much a mystery, hard to figure out, tends to hide from things, not confrontational, and I am the opposite, and when Amanda is blunt, straightforward, direct and I always know exactly where I stand...yeah, that's just refreshing.( Scott says the same thing about my wife.) We all give each other different angles and things to feel and see.

Incidentally, this whole undertaking has not been easy. There are times when it is, but a good portion has been figuring out how it's going to work and then knowing when it's okay to just not know an answer to something. We all have moods, we all have needs, and we all have been working hard to just figure out what's what. Sometimes its just exhausting, but it's also funny at times, sweet, endearing...on any given day you I can experience all kinds of things. Man, I sleep like a baby at night, this stuff takes WORK! That being said, I wish I could describe what it feels like to have all my girls under one roof vs. how it felt when they were not. What it came down to was that not only did we want to do this but we NEEDED to do this. For us, this is the correct path, risk or no risk. For me, the risk is essentially the same as when I first got married- someday, this person may no longer want me. Hell, I may no longer want her. You look at the possibilities, then you pay your dollar and place your bet. That's just the risk of life, I would rather take the risk and be able to look into the mirror and say I was true to my heart.
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WalterB
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June 29th, 2012, 6:44 pm

(Don't worry, Vicky, I'm cool. You know I can be blunt sometimes (an ass? :lmao: ))

And, LMD, I appreciate your words and I certainly apologize to you. I am an old fart, brought up in a different yworld. But, you know what? Every time I want to say that I don't like someone, or something about someone, I generally find out that they are not really that different from me, nor me from them.

What this world really needs is more tolerance for others, not more anger and fighting. I was brought up religious, and have my beliefs. But that is also part of the reason, I think that I recently lost the woman I have loved for 50 years (long story, LMD. It's on the forum here, somewhere.) I also tend to believe like I think you are saying. If something works for me, who are you to say it is wrong? It may be wrong for you, but why would that make it wrong for me? And my sweetheart didn't seem to think that way. She seems to have grown up rather close-minded. And I know that would have stood in our way. (She was my HS sweetheart. We got reconnected after a 25 year separation, and thought we were still deeply in love. Well, I was, but turned out she wasn't, and I lost her.)

Anyway, you keep posting and I will keep reading. I might even post some more, if I can come up with something a little more constructive.

And, let me say this - I am probably just jealous. :lmao: Best to your wife and your close friends. It really would be nice if it worked out for you all. :walt:
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June 29th, 2012, 10:07 pm

WalterB wrote:(Don't worry, Vicky, I'm cool. You know I can be blunt sometimes (an ass? :lmao: ))

And, LMD, I appreciate your words and I certainly apologize to you. I am an old fart, brought up in a different yworld. But, you know what? Every time I want to say that I don't like someone, or something about someone, I generally find out that they are not really that different from me, nor me from them.

What this world really needs is more tolerance for others, not more anger and fighting. I was brought up religious, and have my beliefs. But that is also part of the reason, I think that I recently lost the woman I have loved for 50 years (long story, LMD. It's on the forum here, somewhere.) I also tend to believe like I think you are saying. If something works for me, who are you to say it is wrong? It may be wrong for you, but why would that make it wrong for me? And my sweetheart didn't seem to think that way. She seems to have grown up rather close-minded. And I know that would have stood in our way. (She was my HS sweetheart. We got reconnected after a 25 year separation, and thought we were still deeply in love. Well, I was, but turned out she wasn't, and I lost her.)

Anyway, you keep posting and I will keep reading. I might even post some more, if I can come up with something a little more constructive.

And, let me say this - I am probably just jealous. :lmao: Best to your wife and your close friends. It really would be nice if it worked out for you all. :walt:

Thanks for the feedback Walt, very much. I too was brought up very religious, very bible driven christianity and while I appreciate my upbringing and what people close too me were attempting to deliver it ultimately ended up not being my path. Hasn't been easy, when I think of the fear I was raised with and the absolute mental torture I used to put myself through over every decision.....no. Can't do it. Now I am very much go with my own heart and what will be will be. You know what that mind set has done for me? It has freed me up to be driven, never doubting myself, just see goal and go and get it and now I rarely fail if I want something.

I thought about the board while cooking dinner tonight, I am the chef of the bunch, and my wife is at work tonight, kids are off at a friends, and so its just the three of us, Amanda sitting in between us, paying attention intermittently, and I just had to laugh, because while from the outside looking in it's weird- her husband will be going to bed soon to get some sleep before my wife wakes him up later (he works early mornings) for us this the new normal, and strange as it would look from the outside looking in it makes sense for us.
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July 5th, 2012, 11:23 am

Why am I the only one who hasn't asked for pictures of the happy foursome???

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