Abortion

[stickyvicky]

I'm starting a new thread on this because its about Trump yes, but it's a whole topic on it's own.

How do people here feel about abortion? I am personally against it for the most part because I know lots of couples who want to badly to conceive and cannot even with fertility drugs. Isn't it so unfair that people who want kids can't have them, and those who don't recklessly get pregnant and then abort them? These people turn to adoption. I know lots of people who were so lucky they were adopted into happy families. I have seen a lot of success stories with adoption.

I have also seen women who didn't want kids and shouldn't have had kids, who were forced by society to have them. These kids grew up to be drug addicts, gangsters, wife beaters, criminals and rapists. This may sound horrible but those kids should have been aborted at 6 weeks or the minute the woman knew she was pregnant by mistake. These people ended up spending their lives in prison and being a drain on society.

I also know several pornstars who got pregnant on set during a regular boy/girl shoot, where the cumshot went into the vagina. (not creampie scene, external ejaculation scene but just dripped in by mistake and they had strong swimmers). These girls went immediately for abortions and continued on in life like nothing happened...

Then I know some girls who have been pregnant several times, and gotten an abortion every time. They use it as if it's some form of birth control! WTF? I am totally against that. Be RESPONSIBLE in the first place. I cried like a baby one time when I had to loan a girl money for an abortion. I tried everything I could think of to convince her not to do it, since it was late term, but she was determined. It was likely for the best since she had been drinking and drugging during the first few months of her pregnancy anyway.

The reason I was thinking about all this today, is:

From the ACLU's Facebook page:
"President Trump took the first step of his administration's war on women's health by signing an executive order today to reinstate the Mexico City policy-- also known as the global gag rule.
"According to the policy, foreign organizations that receive U.S. aid cannot have anything to do with abortion, including mentioning the word abortion or providing women with information, even when the organizations use their own non-U.S. funds and even in countries where abortion is legal. The policy is a clear assault on access to health care and free speech around the globe.
"What happened when the policy was in place before? Clinics across the globe closed, depriving communities access to essential supplies including contraception."

So is this the first step? Is President Trump going to try to ban abortion. I'm not for abortion at all, but I do still believe in a woman's right to choose.

[CGYMike]

To watch 7 men sign an act that limits funding to countries for even mentioning the word abortion in any of their literature is sickening...and it might be the first step to making it illegal in the USA. Imagine the plight of a young woman who has nowhere to turn when all is lost...is financially unable to raise that child..is a victim of rape? It's heartbreaking.

42 million Americans did you know this was about to happen? Did you know your health care was going to disappear overnight? Did you know global warming doesn't exist anymore?..or that the rights of The LBGTQ community is hanging by a thread?? Or that the Spanish language was just removed from the White House website??

...and only in the first 4 days?? At this rate women will be flocking over the border in record numbers to find a clinic who will help them before the year is over.

[stickyvicky]

I was trying to separate this from the Trump thread. They are such huge topics by themselves, I didn't want everything all mixed in. Maybe we should start threads about the Global Warming issue, and another on the Health Care issue. I was already thinking about that. I was curious to see what Catalina and Walt would say about the abortion issue in this thread, since they are the 2 biggest Trump supporters here on the forum. At least the 2 biggest openly supportive, there are probably several others who just are not posting.

[WalterB]

(I started answering this, Vicky, before Mike jumped in, lol. But he beat me to the "send" button. I had a feeling you were interested in what I might say.)

This may sound very crude, but I believe that, yes, it IS a woman's right to choice. But the time to make that choice is before you do the deed! And I readily make exceptions for cases of rape and incest or medical issues.

The problem with that is all of the uneducated women out there that simply don't know any better. Sometimes it's hard for me to understand how young women can NOT know these things. But, like anything else you have to be taught. And all I can figure is that our schools and our parents (our moms?) are failing in this regard? I learned in high school that a woman has periods. And I learned what those periods are for (or are the result of.) I learned that a female is on generally a 28 day cycle, and that there is a period of time within that 28 days when unprotected sex is ok, and another period within that 28 days when you should use protection. Because if you don't, you're gonna get pregnant. Geez, If I can learn it, how difficult can it be?

We have some sort of defective gene in our family line. It so far seems to only affect the sons, some of whom are born handicapped. I had two brothers die because of it, one at age one and one at age four. Now my niece has two physically and mentally handicapped sons. They are around 12 and 15 now. One is better off than the other, but they will never be productive members of society or even live on their own. Now there have been tremendous medical advances since my mother was 22 or so. They now have a much better idea about all this. The female side apparently carries the defective gene, but I've even heard that it's only certain men that combine the proper genes or whatever to cause the handicap. I don't know. Anyway, all of this has been explained to my nieces daughter, who is now 26. Well, there's a long story behind her, too. But we finally got her motivated enough to get into at least Community College to learn something and to get out and get a job. Then she got pregnant (so she immediately quit school.). Which only means one thing. Neither she or her boyfriend were using any sort of protection. I'm sorry. I certainly am nice to her, as she is family and, of course, l love her. But is she really that stupid? Did all that talking really go in one ear and out the other? Now she is wide open to having a handicapped son, and she isn't even remotely ready to handle that. Single and no job. But i guess the future doesn't exist for her.

The point of this is, if they could determine early on the the fetus was handicapped, I would certainly support an abortion. But I see this "It's my body" movement as a desire to (please excuse me) to go out and raise hell Saturday night. Then, if they get pregnant, it's "No worries. i can have it aborted." Oh, HELL no!

There is a trucking company out there, Covenant Trucking. On the back of all their trailers is a phrase, "It is not a choice, it is a child." With all the pregnancy prevention options out there, why do we need to provide unlimited abortions? Why are these women not practicing safe sex? I can understand why men don't like condoms. They desensitize the penis and pretty much ruin the enjoyment. But many women feel, "Do I have to do everything? Why can't the guy do something?"

There are exceptions and reasons, just like any issue. but I think that open and unfettered options are wrong. A friend of mine is 36 and pregnant. She has been married for 20 years and has 3 kids. So when her husband recently told her he wanted a divorce, it was pretty devastating to her. She immediately looked into an abortion. She has to go to the doctor and watch a video. Then, 24 hours later, she can have the abortion. She said, "What am I? A freaking kid? I'm 36 and have 3 kids all ready. Just let me handle this." And I agree with her. I do feel that this is another valid reason. I'm sure there are numerous reasons and I don't know how to quantify them.

But I don't think that free access to abortions "on call" is the answer. Yes, ma'm, it is your body. And it is also your responsibility to handle it responsibly. There are many ways to handle this. Many ways. But I think that allowing free and unfettered abortions without some sort of serious justification is wrong. (Note that I am talking about here in the United States. i don't think it is our right to define how other countries handle such issues.)

[WalterB]

Mike, I love you dearly, but please understand, 1) healthcare is NOT going to disappear overnight. 2) There is a serious discussion about Global Warming that continues. At least one of my friends thinks all of the Global Warming hyperbole is just that - hyperbole. I think it is real. It just stands to reason due to all of the pollution we spew into the air every day. 3) I don't believe that anybody's "rights" are "hanging by a thread." 4) Why is it a problem that a Spanish Language web page was removed from the White House web site? (first I've heard about this.) This is America. We speak English in this country. Anyone who wishes to come here and be a productive member of our society should be ready, willing and able to learn the language. Why should we have to try to accommodate the language problems of people who only want to come here and reap all the freebies, while making no effort whatsoever to becoming actual productive members of our society. Why in the HELL do I, in my own country, have to press "1" to speak English?

Sorry, Vicky, you asked about abortion. and your thread should stay focused. But, please, don't start any more political threads (lol.) I would much rather your site stay a politics-free zone.

[MargeShill]

Abortion is never an issue to be taken lightly. I remember years ago my beloved "Nanny" (grandma) telling me that , during the Depression, she found herself pregnant. She and my grandpa had two young daughters and he had been out of work for some time. They would have welcomed a child under different circumstances, I'm sure. She threw herself down a flight of stairs and lost the baby. Her daughters could have also lost a mother. She cried when she told me this story. Personally, I don't think I could ever have had an abortion. However, neither I nor the government has the right to make that decision for any woman.

[stickyvicky]

Great post Marge! The answer lies somewhere in the middle (like most things). We should not "allow free and unfettered abortions" like Walt says because people would use it as a form of birth control. It should also not be as difficult as it was for your relative. Women in the past have done all sorts of crazy things, from drinking a dangerous drug or herbal potion to trying to do their own abortion with a coathanger because abortions are not available where they live. I do think that anyone wanting to have an abortion get counseling first from a professional and be made to wait a day before being compulsive. You should always sleep on a big decision like that. Walt who knows, your friend may have changed her mind. Or not. Point is she was able to get one. Everyone should be made to go to counseling afterwards too, to help deal with the emotional aftermath, and to be 1000% sure that it won't happen again. Just my opinion.

But banning abortions? I think that would be disastrous and the beginning of removing women's rights.

[MargeShill]

My late friend told me she had an abortion in the 50's on her kitchen table by a very reputable gynecologist in our town. He was paid "under the table" and kept his mouth shut. She found herself in a bad situation (affair with a married man-very poor judgment definitely) and felt she had no choice. She was haunted by this till she died. It's amazing how much this was going on behind the scenes.

[Kirstie]

I'm against abortion... I feel everyone should be responsible and I know that if you have sex, condom or no condom, there's a chance you may get pregnant, so you have to deal with the consequences. If it's something like rape, I can imagine that must be very hard to keep a baby when it came about in that way (not saying that abortions always happen in that case but who knows) and be reminded of how they were created, etc. I can barely have a guy stay with me let alone stay with me long enough to get so serious but I do want kids...prepared or not, I can't imagine getting an abortion. That baby is part of you. Even if I got raped, I don't know if I would abort. If something happened that I Gog pregnant and couldn't keep the baby, I would put into adoption. Letting go of someone you created must be agonizing and heart breaking but that's way better than aborting....
But I also agree that every woman should have a choice because it's her body and I can't tell this woman or that woman what she can or cannot do with her own self....so the fact that Trump is trying to get rid of things Like Planned Parenthood and whatnot is so wrong. Some girls don't have people they can turn to or people they can trust. I'm sure some girls would get beaten to death or thrown out if they got knocked up and that's probably terrifying for them and although I'm way against abortion, maybe they feel like that's their only option...and Trump is trying to take it away...

[Davest]

Expecting everyone to be responsible is about as realistic as expecting everyone to say no to drugs. And we all know how well prohibition works. Drugs and alcohol are choices, but our bodies are literally built to fuck, saying no means going against everything evolution has added to our hormones, in addition to any peer pressure. Using contraception is reasonable and smart but people are, by-and-large, unreasonable and stupid (especially in some of our most fertile years).

I would feel better about putting any restrictions on abortion if birth control was freely available, but it isn't.

I would feel better about putting any restrictions on abortion if we cared as much about the child's welfare after it was born as we do when it is in utero, but we don't. Save the baby, but defund welfare and food stamps and free school lunches, and sure as shit don't cover the child with any kind of health care plan. Sigh.

Also, if we force the woman to carry the child, should we also force the man to stay and help raise it? Never seen that one discussed, LOL. And it is much easier to ditch child support than to ditch the responsibilities of being a single parent.

Finally, the Mexico City policy has been enacted and deactivated several times over the past few decades. One study, and much anecdotal evidence shows that in places like sub-Saharan Africa, it increases the abortion rate instead of decreasing it, because it effectively cuts off funding to almost all sources of family planning and contraception.

[catalina2]

ok, so I was bored tonight. thought I would check out Vick's threads. What a mistake!!
Ok, so now it's abortion. btw, Vick, why is an intelligent, well adjusted and beautiful woman like you perusing the Facebook page of the ACLU!? Are you just determined to stay on the dark side?? Geez, at least read the Economist. The ACLU is the home of misfits, anarchists and communists who couldn't make it in the real world, much like the civil rights division of the Justice Dept. Oh yes, we were discussing abortion. No comical matter.

Let's get some ground rules: this is NOT about Trump or republicans. It's simply my experience and evolution on the abortion issue. No politician or church ever influenced my views on this subject and they never will.
I have read about and heard first hand about the time before "the pill". If a woman became pregnant out of marriage she was actually stigmatized. Yes, back then we blamed primarily the woman. She may as well have had a scarlet letter emblazoned upon her. No matter if she was in school and attempted to "keep it a secret". Everybody knew and judged accordingly. She was a slut. The wealthy girls became "ill" for a few days while their parents flew them out of town to have an unlawful abortion at great expense. The less wealthy were ostracized. They suffered the slings and arrows of societies disapproval. They carried their child to term upon which they were compelled to place he/she into adoption. Most were discouraged from marriage to the father though some did and left school immediately, cosigned forever to a life of struggle both socially and financially. They, in my estimation, were the brave ones, the moral ones, the ones who were committed to each other. Yes, there were those who tried "self abortions" with all the horrific aftermaths you can imagine both physical and mental. Then "the pill" arrived in 1960 and was followed by Roe vs Wade in 1973. Transdermal ultrasound was is in its infancy. When I was on the scene all were available with the exception of detailed intrauterine ultrasound. When I was a resident rotating through anesthesia I recall reporting to the dept early every Saturday morning to provide anesthesia/sedation for a "d & c" - dilation and curettage as it was euphemistically called. A suction abortion was what it was in reality. I can remember walking through the pre-op area with women screaming at me that they had been waiting a half hour and wanted to "get it done and be discharged, they had a date that night". True story. It was, after all, New York. I'll admit it bothered me to see women so cavalier about it but I was a young resident and it was just something I had to do. You see, the residents got to do all the "scut" work in the hospital. I averaged 40 a day and I wasn't the only resident doing them. 40 a day! They only took about 15 minutes. 40 a day!
I was all for women's rights and am so today. It was only after I began to see the high resolution ultrasounds and the more sophisticated intra-uterine devices that I began to take a step back, not against women's rights but the rights of the unborn. I went off into my specialty and forgot all about abortions. Then I heard about late term abortion and what that entailed. I was stunned. I won't delve into or describe the indescribable horrors of late term abortion or the "docs" that perform them. That's between the conscience of the doc and the patient. I'm all for early term abortion BUT just when does that "glob of tissue" become a human fetus able to open its eyes, feel pain, have fingers? It's argued now, and reasonably so, that life begins when the two disparate DNA strands attach. Quite a dilemma now. One fact I do know, it's NOT the state's business or the federal government's. I know what my answer to the dilemma is - I'll never be the cause of or encourage a woman to have or not have an abortion ever again. I don't envy the woman with an unwanted pregnancy. Were it I, I would have the child and place in adoption if I wasn't able to properly care for he/she. That's easy for a man to say. My position on abortion? It is evolving each day science takes another step.

[PeterL22]

This is a really difficult one. To be honest I don't think there can be any absolute right or wrong opinion/answer here. Unless you have actually been in the position to have to make a decision about a potential human being you don't really know how you would decide.
I do agree that Termination (what docs call it) is NOT a form of contraception and shouldn't be used as such. I would also say that girls who seem to think it is (deliberate use of word seem there), probably need help to look at it and the other options to actually prevent unplanned pregnancy. That's not being sexist either , because often the guy doesn't know about the pregnancy or is not willing to get involved etc, so sadly a lot of women don't have support from them.
With regard to the Medical termination for metal abnormalities etc, even that is not straight forward, - take Stephen Hawking as an example - if there had been a genetic test that could have predicted his illness when he was in utero, should he have been aborted? You couldn't have asked him at the time.
I just think anyone who has to think about abortion does need to have help and support - before, during and after. Having seen a gynaecologist do a weekly termination list (usually on girls aged 16 - 18) and go through all the gory details of the operation (including describing what comes out from the uterus) there is a wrong way to try to change opinions. Also some came back again anyway so that didn't work either.
Sorry about the ramble - rights should come with responsibilities, but I don't want to cast the first stone at anyone.

[stickyvicky]

So many great minds and well thought out and well crafted answers here on this forum. Just wanna say, I appreciate them all.

[PeterL22]

Hey, it takes a great mind to question things and open up debates!

[Maggie Green]

My body, my choice. Period.

[Fr33Sprt]

My body, my choice. Period.

Im with you Maggie but, I kinda think they should change how late you can have one. I mean have you seen the pictures or have read any medical journals on what all happens!? Im in no way trying to change the mind of any woman but you just have to do the research (not saying that you havent). I remember when I was going to college in Pittsburgh & there use to be a man holding a sign of a fetus (graphic photograph) after an abortion that was delayed, not such a pretty picture at 7am in the morning. I usually never include myself in such conversations for multiple reasons but it was nice to see someone with the same view(s) as myself, I most likely will not post anything else after this post.



XOXO

Free Spirit

[carl goldfinger]

My body, my choice. Period.

Basically I'm with Maggie.
The woman grows it inside her body. SHE has the responsibility, so it is HER choice, finally!
The woman can ask "the maker" if he will support her to grow it up or not.
Thus, it is necessary to support the woman with a secure & healthy environment if he wants a baby from a woman. (+ love ...etc...lol )
Sounds nice... in theory... but how does reality look like?
Disasterous...

Kids get pregnant because they are naive or aren't well educated about sex.
Poor people often have the same problems.
The children's homes are full. Why that, if infertile couples want a baby / kid?
What happened to kids who grew-up in children's homes? I heard that the living conditions in those homes are anything else than good.
The reason is that the administration don't want to spend any $ for other people's kids. They grow them up to end up in a social low level, the poor, with a bad prognosis.
If you want to reduce abortion, as a gov, you have to make pregnancy a matter of public interest, with a fair amount of financial support, to give the kids a better chance.

The consequences of having a baby / kid in an unsecure and unstable social situation is what women lead to abortion.
In the middle of the 60's my Mom got desperate when she was pregnant the forth time. You know, in the 60's abortion was totally illegal in Germany.
So my Mom asked a backstreet abortionist for help. She don't wanted to do it but she gave my Mom the tools & explained her how to use them.
My Dad & My Mom made it together. This was very crazy because this was very very dangerous. My Mom barely survied it...
Nowadays the "Morning-After Pill" is legal in Germany. I've asked some of my GFs about it & they ALL said they are very happy to have that "option", if needed.
BTW... to think that women take that easy and don't have mental problems like depressions after using them is totally wrong.
It's the same feeling as an abortion, only the methode is different an easier, my GFs told me.

& accidentially getting pregnant? A condom is NOT a guarantee for a reliable contraception neither is the birth control pill... I'm a "in dispite of a condom" kid ...BTW

Hey! You can follow the Pope's advice & only have sex when you want to make a baby.
This advice is so stupid because it totally ignores the fact that sexuality is a natural property of every human (& all other beings as well) and if you suppress it you'll get mentally sick.... its like stop breathing.

I think Trump is a rich stupid prick who's fat ass is in clouds cuckoo land.
His mindless, ignorant executive orders will drive pregnant women who are seraching for help into illegality, with all them bad consequences for their health ...etc...

There are so many more things to say about it, but this is my point of view for short...



Carl

PS: Some crazy thoughts out of my synapse salad:

OK, Mr.Trump, you have billions of $, so why don't you spend them, that pregnant women can grow their kids without having existential fear?

or...

Funny, but there is some truth in it ... will Trump ban BJs by an executive order, too?
I hope he will not, because I love my lovely cannibals here ...haha

[catalina2]

re the belief "my body, my choice" - a rather simplistic and supercilious response to a complex question. In point of fact, it may be a woman's body but what do you call what is created by that body and is, for nine months, at one with it. A parasite so to speak. Deriving nourishment from it's host mother. I would argue that it is not so much a parasitic relationship as it is symbiotic as the mother does derive benefits from the child. The pregnant mother has less chance of ovarian and breast cancers. Some theorize this is based upon immunological levels and hormonal factors. Each day we are learning more and more. So it may be "your body" but it is hosting another distinct living entity which is called a child or human being at birth from which you have derived some degree of good. Would it not be more accurate to say "my body, my creation, my choice"? But then you are assuming responsibility for making life and death decisions for another. Are you comfortable doing that?
I'm not attempting to diminish women's rights, far from it. I deeply envy women the ability to have a child. Women are indispensable to a society, men are not. I am all for women's "rights" but with "rights" comes duty and responsibility. Rights involve a moral imperative to think about one's actions. Spewing cavalier slogans is not thought, it is reaction. Gone are the days when we, men and women, could plead ignorance re fetal development and genetics. We simply know too much now to say, "my body, my choice" unless, of course, you deny that accrued knowledge. Maggie, I'm not advocating what or how you should feel. I am advocating that you take a moment, forget all the bitterness that mandated that response, and consider what it means to have an abortion. Then, by all means, have it. Despite all the hyperbole, I guarantee women will not lose the choice to have an abortion, not in these United States. There are too many men on your side. What should concern you are the attitudes of your own sisters. As for all the political comments, try to keep some minimal control over your venomous rage and hatred of our new President. Try to, as Vicky has requested, "stay on topic".

[Anthony_JK]

Sorry, but I'm with Maggie and any other woman who insists on the right to control her own body. Dead women can't make babies.

I would rather abortion occur less because access to birth control remains inexpensive and men take more responsibility for unwanted births by using condoms. But, in the real world, women have unwanted pregnancies, and they should have the right to terminate them and not get stuck with raising an unwanted child. Or, having the state have to deal with raising the child through foster care.

Her body, her risk, her choice. End. Of. Take.

[catalina2]

don't you just love these declaratives: "period", "end of take"? sound familiar? sound like "the science is settled"? liberals have such a monopoly on truth. how would we survive without them?