Maybe a thorny discussion - personal question

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Matty77
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February 11th, 2022, 11:51 am

Greetings peoples,

I had a brief conversation via private message with Vicky about this question and it seemed worth raising it here where others can see it as well.

This is more a personal question, to satisfy my own thinking/feelings on the matter than anything else however.

I enjoy watching the videos that the women of this site create. I think they are fun and enjoyable, and enjoy the cam shows too.

But there was a time when I would not have chosen to watch them.

See - I spent most of my youth and adulthood - up until my mid 30s within a fairly conservative church environment and it was drilled home into me these (wrong?) ideas about both sex and porn.

This was up until about 2014 when my attitudes changed to become more open to sexual expression.

Prior to that I'd been involved with reading and interacting with people on sites such as 'collectiveshout' and reading materials by folks such as Melinda Tankard Reist - who were campaigners against sexual objectification and who spoke out against sex work a lot.

But then my attitudes all shifted about 8 years ago.

The question though that remains in my mind is this - which has only really been a little more confused after I had a romance from 2016 to 2017:



For the women who perform on cam - do you enjoy performing? Or are there times when you wish you weren't being ogled by guys on your shows all the time?
_____________________________________________

See - I spend the better part of my adult life being taught and following an idea that women who entered sex work did so due to limited options, or as a result of abuse in their past. However I've discovered through my own relationships, and also spending time discussing with a few sex workers in my own city that this is not the case. At least not always.

Yet there are whole organisations devoted to anti-porn, often originating out of a religious perspective.

_______________________________________________

I have no qualms or problems with the "morality" around sex work - however I don't really know who to believe - the anti porn campaigners who say the women who work these industries use drugs to cope, and come from a life experience of abuse, or the workers who say sex work is a very lucrative financially type of work that lets the women set their own rules and hours around employment.

Do you have any thoughts?

Sorry if I've opened a can of worms.

from Matt
"peace:
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LizLemon85
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February 11th, 2022, 1:09 pm

That's an interesting topic Matt!
(usual disclaimer, sorry for my broken English)
I'm not a sex worker myself so I can only speak from an outsider's perspective, but
I think the problem with the public discussion and/or perception is that there seem to be only two sides: it's either that sex work is degrading, all women are forced victims, drug addicts, mentally unstable and unfit to work a "regular" job or that sex work is liberating, the best job ever, easy money.
Both opinions are dangerous, because they cause harm.
So many people do sex work, it's probably a cross-section of society, so of course some people have mental health problems and addiction problems or have experienced violence, because sadly a lot of people have, also outside of sw. I guess the majority are just people trying to live their lifes and earn some money. It's just a job. Do they love every second of it? Probably not, but no one loves their job all the time, sometimes you have a cold or are tired or are just not in a good mood or you hate your coworker. The difference is that sex work is considered a more uncommon job than working in an office, because people feel bad, shameful or guilty because of their own sexuality.

But what is also dangerous in my opinion is that some porn stars and/or influencers make it seem like it's easy money, effortless, no downsides, it's empowering, you're your own boss etc. A lot of women create an Onlyfans account especially during the pandemic without thinking about how that might affect their personal lifes, it's difficult if not impossible to go back to a regular job. And they underestimate the fact that there's a lot of actual work involved, paper work, working out, dieting, being on lots of different platforms etc.
And there are assholes who are abusive, some people are mistreated and forced to do things they don't want to do. Not because porn is bad itself, but because that behavior exists throughout society.
But then social media is for advertising, many customers probably don't want to know about daily struggles, they want to be entertained and models don't want to lose subscribers.
But I also do feel bad about watching porn and objectifying the women involved sometimes. That's why I only watch paid content and only from specific performers.
And stand up against haters online, no matter if it's on Twitter or in the comment section of a video.
Having too much sex can cause memory loss. I read that on page 69 in a medical journal on the 4th of May in 2008.
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WalterB
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February 11th, 2022, 1:50 pm

Well, Matty, as usual, I wrote you a book, lol. Hope you can wade thru it.

By the time you've spent 79 years on this ball of dirt, if you're lucky, you learn a few things. One thing I've learned is that, basically, we are all alike. Stop and think for a second. Using America as an example, if there are 300 million people in this country, then there are 300 MILLION worlds. The world and life appears differently to all of us, but we all act the same. Some want to become policemen, some want to be firemen, some want to be politicians, some want to go to church and some want to be sex workers.

I grew up in what I would now call a pretty protected environment. I'm sure all of the problems that occur in todays world were happening in 1950 as well. The difference was that there was no technology. About all we had were our TV and our newspapers. Since the computers and then smart phones came along, if someone gets shot in New York, we hear about it within the hour. The internet has given a voice to everyone. But it didn't bring intelligence with it. Technology has also brought a medium where every person anywhere can spout their ideas and wishes, no matter how weird or off center or how far out in left field they may be. Some ideas, some wishes are valid and commendable. But that damn undercurrent of people who seem to be lacking in intelligence has become very large part of our lives. The Jan 6th issue is one. They reveal that those folks who attacked the capital first organized it on line. They spread their hate and anger on the internet, then weak-minded people saw it and thought, "Cool. Let's go bomb the White House."

What all of this means is that now, everyone with an agenda has a mouthpiece. Now, that is not necessarily bad. But to handle it all, you have to keep a firm belief on your own intelligence. I have come to realize that we are al alike. A policeman is not some sort of demigod. A policeman is someone who wants to help keep things under control, who wants to stop the criminality and to protect the rest of us. Yes, there are bad cops. But there are MANY more good cops, good and decent people trying to make a difference in a difficult world. And the same thing applies to the sex industry.

So, now to answer your question. Sex workers (porn models, prostitutes and everyone else) are all just like us. They are people who wash their clothes, they fix dinner, they go shopping. There are good ones there are bad ones, there are those who are full of themselves, there are those whose whole intent is to share their world with others because they realize that they have a lot to offer, Vicky, lol.

Sex workers get sick. They travel on airplanes. Are you sure you've never traveled on an airplane with a porn model? Of course not. The point is, they are people just like the rest of us. Some are pretty fantastic people. Some are assholes. The thing is that the rest of us have a strong interest in sex and no girlfriends, lol. So we turn to porn. Personally, I think that we should be thankful that so many of these lovely ladies want to share themselves with the world. There are many people out there who like to share their lives. kids, youth, young adults and old adults. But somehow sex is different.

My belief is that all of the reasons you suggested are real. You mentioned abuse, you mentioned drugs. There are many others, there could be financial issues. Probably a lot of young women see this and say "Gee, if I show my bod on the internet, I can get rich." So, Matty, there are a lot of reasons that women get into sex work. Yes, some even because they like it, They are good and decent people who act for no other reason except they can, and they enjoy it. I have no doubt at all that many of the ladies in porn get off on the simple excitement of knowing that others are watching them have sex. I mean, you see women out in public all the time that make you think, "DAMN! I sure would love to wrestle with that beauty for a couple hours." So you go home, call up your favorite star on your computer and then you do what comes naturally. People who yell and scream about sex workers also go home and have sex with whomever. So I just don't pay attention to them.

Sex workers are like you and I. There are good, and there are bad. Here you have latched onto a group of GOOD people. I've been here 15 years now. I've been to numerous conventions in L.A., Las Vegas, Dallas and Chicago, and have shared many fun and exciting times with these ladies..And I've loved every bit of it. I have pictures to prove all of it. And I have memories I wouldn't trade. I have met some fantastic people who have become friends, pretty close friends, actually. Do I have sex with them? Of course not. When a sex worker is doing something, she is doing her job. It does NOT mean that she is out there fucking anything in pants. And you shouldn't expect that. If something works out? You're living one of your fantasies. If nothing happens? That is perfectly all right. The ladies I have met are all decent and wonderful people. Some have even surprised me. When I start thinking, "She isn't all that excited by me," I figure that's just fine. But then somewhere down the road, they'll do something, say something that really knocks me back and I realize that all is well. If you are good and decent to the ladies, they will be good and decent people right back at you. And you will make a friend. All you have to do is be yourself. Talk to a porn model like you would anyone else. When you meet a porn model, don't tell her, "You sure have a pretty pussy." (yes, there are people who will do that.) Tell her, "I really like your work. I appreciate what you do for us." They will be so much more attracted to you than example 1.

So, to end this? Don't worry about it, Matty. I grew up going to Church. I grew up in a very sanitary world. My parents were "middle-America," Bible Belt people who weren't fanatics about anything, they very simply knew right from wrong and good from bad. I can't remember when I first started paying attention to porn. It was slow, I know. But here I am, a moderator and member of one of the premier porn sites on the internet. But, if my parents were here? I'd hide it from them.

Sex is good, and sex workers are GREAT. If they want to show you their naked bodies? If they want you to watch them fuck? Be thankful and be confident that the lady you are watching is doing what she wants. No one is forced into porn at gunpoint. So stand up for the models you like. Tell them you appreciate what they do. Tell them they excite you. Let them know. They want reassurance as well as we all do. So give them that, without hesitation.

And who knows, someday, you might even make a friend you wouldn't trade the world for.
I can resist everything except temptation.
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WalterB
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February 11th, 2022, 1:53 pm

What Liz said, too.
I can resist everything except temptation.
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stickyvicky
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February 12th, 2022, 11:23 am

What excellent posts above! You guys make me so proud to know you! So intelligent and thoughtful!

I love what I do! I would think you could tell? When you see me in my show, and you see the interaction between Rokkerr and I? The jokes and jabs towards each other... you can see the genuine smiles and laughter? We love what we do for a living and would never choose to do anything else!
:yeahbaby: Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence.
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greggl
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February 12th, 2022, 8:41 pm

Liz and Walt pretty much said it all. dont think I can add anything.
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StevieP
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February 13th, 2022, 7:00 am

Just as greggl has said, I can't really add anything to what Liz or Walt have said. All I can say from my own perspective is that while there are always exceptions to the anything, in my experience I have found sex workers to be not only the most honest and genuine of people through interactions with them but they have provided me with a comfort and companionship that has endured a long stretch of time. And now today with social media and fan sites, and wonderful boards like this one, you can interact on a level I would have only dreamed about 25-30 years ago when these people only existed to me in the pages of magazines or on video tape... and because of that you see a whole person and their lives (if so inclined to share). I genuinely take a great deal of comfort in that and with those few I feel I have got to know even a little over the years, and it's a shame that because of certain attitudes and stigmas I often can't be as open about that as I would like to be. It has caused me some bother in the past... which I won't go into here because while I appreciate Matty being as open as he has been with his post, the situation I was in several years ago only by association with someone isn't something I want to air to many.
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Hornylady9
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February 13th, 2022, 9:50 am

I agree with Liz and Walt! They both said it right! The models are human beings just doing a job just like most people, it just happens to be in sex work. I have been part of VNA since 2013 and I have never been happier. Like Walt I have been to a few conventions and met a few of the ladies. They have been some of the greatest ladies I have met!! It is very interesting to meet them at conventions cause as long as u are polite, u will get the same back. I have seen some people come up with some interesting questions to the ladies.

And if u guys who have not been to a convention decide to go, please DO NOT ask the women how to get into porn. ASK a man who is already in porn. The last couple of conventions, that was a complaint I heard the most from ladies and guys (husbands, boyfriends, etc.) who were with the ladies.

I have had people try to tell me about other sites to go to, no way! I have not watched everything I can see on VNA, I am not going anywhere! I am VNA for life!!

Zany
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SamanthaGrace
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February 15th, 2022, 10:09 pm

Hello what an interesting topic.

So, I probably come from a different prospective then some. I have a middle of the road prospective on this topic. I've volunteered for outreach programs. I've personally encountered people on the anti adult work side of the world. I know a few as friends in my personal life. I am not secular and have a very Christian world view myself. That side of me exists everyday. I've read the Bible cover to cover. I also, read the books outside the cannon. I think there are many Christians who miss the boat on what it's all about. It's not about judging others. But judging yourself and your action. Also, being an example. There are parts of the industry, that do conflict with my own morality. Those parts I do not partake in. I also, do not come from a fire and brimstone prospective. I read the new testament, as the new covenant with our creator. I focus less on the old testament. I view that as the old world and the cautionary tale. There are behaviors I do not get up to because of that. But I do not judge those who do. That is their path and they are here for their own lessons.

As for the industry, I've also encountered women via outreach who've experienced the dark side of the industry. It is there and it is very real. I do come to odds with friends in the industry who have this prospective "all adult work is sunny and happy because my life is sunny and happy." But the truth is, life isn't sunny and happy for everyone. That has to be acknowledged. Yes, there are women who get in very bad situations with pimps etc. Women who have been abused in childhood to come to the industry because it is what they know. However, they tend to not be women running their own sites. It is the dark underbelly side of things. Actually, the Darkunderbelly is a great youtube channel. They do excellent interviews with people on there. It does give you an idea of the people who need help via outreach. The kind of people I met when I volunteered. These are people who lived hard lives. Like, where in creepy abuse rings as children etc. They only know their own value in this way. I find most girls I know with sites and on this side of things, to not represent that. Most of the girls I know have gone to college, had cooperate jobs before adult etc. Had very typical lives. I have worked with a few women, who were abused and have their own sites too. They where people who turned their lives around. It really takes all kinds.

I very much walk in two worlds. These two worlds are always at odds in someway. But they do not have to be. I try to live by example. I believe in spreading my light to those who need it most. The reason I have my site, I come across lonely men. We live in a time where the world is crazy and a lot of men are going their own way. I'm here because I want to show them, what else can be in life. I've had guys who buy customs from me for example stop, because they are getting married. I believe very much in marriage. It's a great thing for most people. I am happy to hear talking to me built them back up and they felt they could play the field.

I tend to have a balanced view of the world. Some good and some bad. Before I had my site, I worked in a setting with chefs. I found a lot of partying and heavy drug use in that life. I actually found a lot of the people I worked for to have loads of addictions etc. I had to quit working in that environment. I found my people with VNA. I think there are also chef's who are like me don't drink, smoke and do drugs too. I just happened to work with a party crowd. The world is a mixed bag of types. What I find interesting, I have had issues with people I have met in the industry who have later found out, I come at things from a Christina prospective. I had someone at a Christmas party assume my believes because of a presumption about Christians as a whole. They thought all were the fire and brimstone group. I came back with, you would never assume anything with someone who was LBGT why are you assuming with me? I do not judge LBGT people myself. Not my place to. So, judgement can come from all sides in my experience. VNA is great for me because Vicky and company have never judged me.
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stickyvicky
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February 16th, 2022, 2:41 pm

Some amazing replies on this thread! Aren't you glad you started it Matty?
:yeahbaby: Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence.
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UncleDave
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February 16th, 2022, 10:36 pm

Am I the only one when they hear "sex worker" thinks of a prostitute? Who depend solely on performing sex acts with strangers to get paid.

I look at porn movie actors as people who have a job that entails sex. Sure they get paid for it but so do "mainstream" actors. Acting is acting. Just because it includes sex doesn't make it much different.

From what I see almost everything filmed involving porn is scripted and includes actors. Which I was disappointed learning because I thought I could just roll up in a van and pickup a milf and have sex.

My understanding is porn is an actual job, albeit way better perks than my job. And the majority of the actors are normal down to earth people earning a living.

I've met a few porn stars in my previous profession and they were all very nice normal folks who unless you knew who they were would never suspect what they did for a living. They weren't just out to bang everyone in sight, again a disappoinment to learn, lol.

Maybe, I'm naive but I see a difference between porn actors and "sex workers"
...and she said " Let's go for it, the rooms already paid for!"
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stickyvicky
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February 17th, 2022, 3:57 pm

There is power in numbers. It's much better if we band together as a cohesive group of porn stars, cam girls, escorts, onlyfans stars, whoever or whatever we are, doesnt matter, we are all selling the same thing. SEX.

We should all have the right to not be discriminated against. The right to legal protection from the police, the right to rent an apartment, the right to have a bank account, the right to buy insurance and medical care..... All sex workers should have the same rights as everyone else.

But we don't, not yet, and that's why we shouldn't fight among ourselves, and create differences, and say that one form of sex work is better than another form...... No one is better than anyone else, we are all equal.
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UncleDave
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February 18th, 2022, 11:30 am

stickyvicky wrote: February 17th, 2022, 3:57 pm There is power in numbers. It's much better if we band together as a cohesive group of porn stars, cam girls, escorts, onlyfans stars, whoever or whatever we are, doesnt matter, we are all selling the same thing. SEX.

We should all have the right to not be discriminated against. The right to legal protection from the police, the right to rent an apartment, the right to have a bank account, the right to buy insurance and medical care..... All sex workers should have the same rights as everyone else.

But we don't, not yet, and that's why we shouldn't fight among ourselves, and create differences, and say that one form of sex work is better than another form...... No one is better than anyone else, we are all equal.
I agree, everyone should be able to have all of those things. Government and businesses putting restrictions on people because of what they do for a living is not right. I'm sure they don't mind taking the taxes from people who legitimately run the business and file taxes. Insurance should be available, rates might be higher but still should be available. Banks should let anyone open an account. They use the deposited money like it's their own anyways.

In Michigan where recreational weed is legal, the Government will regulate and tax the business but there are a lot of business owners who can't buy a house because the funds are deemed illegal at the Federal level and can't get a loan and can't pay cash.

As long as you can show where the money came from or just be able to pay, a person should have access to the same things(loans, insurance,bank accounts) as a person with a "normal" or "respectable" job.

The rules are put in place for control and to make money so the few can rule over the many.
...and she said " Let's go for it, the rooms already paid for!"
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