Hieroglyphs vs. Emojis

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ErikB
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November 5th, 2023, 7:16 am

In the "stupid shit" thread, Steinar posted this meme:
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I mentioned in that thread that, while Ancient Egyptian glyphs can stand for a single object or idea, they also have a grammar which can be used to spell out words as well as making whole sentences. I don't know whether emojis can do that. I thought they were all stand-alone ideads or emotions.

There is a YouTuber named Chris Ramsay (not the chef, Gordon Ramsey) who is both a magician and a puzzle solver. He has two channels, one for solving physical puzzles and one where he solves computer-game puzzles, sometimes with an active chat running. A lot of the computer "escape rooms" are really impressive, and I find them to be more enjoyable than the typical shoot-em-up first-person war games I see on some of my computer nerd channels.

When I saw Chris solve this set of virtual escape rooms (split into two videos) I started thinking of a physical puzzle based on Ancient Egypt. As part of the research for it, I started learning a little about the Ancient Egyptian language. I original called the Hieroglyphics, then Hieroglyphs. Then I saw one set of tutorial videos where the instructor made the distinction that the language is Ancient Egyptian, and presumably the hieroglyphs are just the equivalent of letters.

First, here are the virtual and physical puzzles based on Ancient Egypt that Chris has solved somewhat recently. I am not including the one where he got frustrated with his inability to solve a physical pyramid puzzle so he sawed the puzzle in half to see how it worked. He later felt a lot of regret and apologized.

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So, since I wanted to make my own puzzle, I started looking into learning Ancient Egyptian. I first found Voices of Ancient Egypt, and attended a single chat-based course and downloaded the Half-Hour Hierogplyphs Guide. https://www.voicesofancientegypt.com. One thing I learned is that Ancient Egyptian can be read in 3 directions: left-to-right, right-to-left, and top-to-bottom (with left-to-right or right-to-left being a sub-option while reading top-to-bottom). The way you figure out which direction to read is to look at symbols and faces which have a particular "look direction", which faces and bodies being the easiest to figure out. If everybody (including animals) is facing to the right, then the line is read right-to-left. Everybody looks towards the beginning of the line. If everybody is facing left, then the line is read left-to-right. And if the glyphs seem to be arranged vertically, then they are read top-to-bottom. Each "line", as you are reading top to bottom, can contain multiple glyphs arranged either left-to-right or right-to-left. I have not seen an example where line directions were mixed in a single top-to-bottom strip. Either every line is left-to-right, or right-to-left. In tombs, the strips seem to always be separated with long vertical lines.

So, using the Half-Hour Hieroglyphs guide, I made a cartouche with an attempt at transliteration of my name (making sounds in Ancient Egyptian that come as close as possible to the way my name sounds in English):

Ancient Egyptians did not write most of their vowels. If a vowel seems needed, most Egyptologists try inserting "eh" (beta, meta, theta, bread, not the Canadian "That hoser stole my beer, eh!")
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I then watched Charlie Chan in Egypt. I probably watched this as a Saturday afternoon movie as a kid, but I was binge-watching a bunch of Charlie Chan movies within the last year. Now I was able to see that the cheeky prop folks put a little foreshadowing into one of the props (or perhaps the script writers had them do it). The necklace with the "identifying seal of Ahmeti" actually says something like "Asheti equals god plot". The rectangular block is pronounced "sh", as in "ship". An "m" sound, as used in "Ahmeti", which is what all the actors are saying, would be an owl. So maybe they didn't want to bother drawing an owl, or the name of the god changed after the prop was made. I have a little problem with the arrangement of the glyphs, however. The reed (which I always thought was a feather, but feathers have a little curvy blob put on the "blade" side to distinguish them from reeds) is tall enough to cover not only the "shet" part of Asheti, but also the two lines (which really mean "duality"). To me, that means "Ashet(equals)i god plot", which is incorrect.

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Using the graphics mostly from Half-Hour Hieroglyphs, with the last two from (gardiners) and correcting for the way the actors are saying the name "Ahmeti" instead of "Asheti", I would prefer something like this:


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Since a reed is easily recognizable even when shrunk, I chose to combine it with the "t" instead of combining the "t" with the "m": Ah-m-(eh)-tee instead of Ah-m(eh)t-ee.



I later found these videos from another guy who apparently actually is Egyptian (modern-day, of course). I found them very instructive for getting further into the language. He has some pretty neat videos. https://www.youtube.com/@guideofegypt8409/videos


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Then I realized I already had enough information to make my puzzle, and I lost interest in the actual vocabulary of the language. The Ancient Egyptians weren't paragons of virtue, so other than their cool sense of artistic style in their language and their pyramids, I am not interested in their history or culture. I am more interested in Hollywood's Ancient Egypt than the actual one. Futurama made a cute joke: they envisioned a planet whose inhabitants the came to earth and learned most of their science from the Ancient Egyptians, including how to prepare their dead so as to scare Abbott and Costello (and the Wolfman).

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WalterB
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November 5th, 2023, 12:05 pm

So the ancient aliens came here and learned things from the Egyptials? Does that include how to build a spacecraft capable of making 100 light-year trips? :lmao:

I recently saw a picture of a pyramid-style block of stone. It was at least 8, maybe 10 times the height of the man standing beside it. And it was 3 or 4 times that long. And, so, the argument continues. But I see no way that ancient Egyptians could transport stones of this size over long distances and then place them so precisely that you cannot slip a piece of paper between them.

That all sounds quite interesting, Erik. It's gotta take a lot of dedication to get into and learn things like that. My interests seemed to stop at electronics repair and nekkid women, lol.
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ErikB
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November 6th, 2023, 3:15 am

The alien mentioned learning space travel from the Egyptians. I don't know if that's a case of not paying attention, or, more likely, picking on the audience with a contradiction. Although, if the Egyptians could teach space travel to the aliens, then the Egyptians already had it. So, they could have visited the aliens first.

As for dedication, I think being retired, bored, and tired of politics helps with concentration.

I used your Oreo meme on a chat I attend on Wednesdays, Fridays, and Sundays. It was well received. I described it while talking with my sister on the phone today, and she liked it too!
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WalterB
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November 6th, 2023, 3:46 pm

I got that Meme from FB.

I'm not sure if you're serious or just being 'speculative'(?). Meaning, the Egyptians didn't have space travel. But, according to their hieroglyphics, they saw alien spacecraft in the sky. There is also the gold nugget shaped like an F-102 delta-wing jet fighter from the '60's. There are numerous objects in their hieroglyphics that look like modern machinery. But I don't really believe that Egyptians hauled all them bricks for miles, then built massively huge stone edifices. I don't believe that they built the planes and spacecraft depicted in hieroglyphics. I don't believe that the Egyptians made them. I mean, where are all their factories?

The main thing that stops me is the size of the universe and basic physics. Humanity, meaning "earth people," cannot yet reach the speed of light. We aren't even close to that. Now, the nearest 'habitable' planet to Earth is 14 light-years away from Earth. Habitable basically means by us - a carbon based, oxygen breathing animal. Not that there is any animal life there, or even plant life. It means that, the atmosphere, as we see it, is capable of supporting life as we know it. In only 400 short years, we have advanced from the very first technology in America to jet aircraft and spacecraft to other planets. Hell, we personally visited another solar object. Apollo 11 in 1969 was when we first landed on the moon. (54 years ago!) The Egyptian Empire lasted roughly 3,000 years and all they made was rocks. (Yes, they did more, but nothing to do with flight.)

But we are nowhere near Human space travel. Now, if you really understand the distances involved, go out some night into the open country. If you're in the West, it's dark country everywhere. Go at least 60 miles from the nearest city. Now look up. See all those oblong lights? The pinpoints might be individual stars or solar systems. But the oblong objects are entire galaxies - as big or bigger than the Milky Way, which is, itself, 88,000 light-years across. One light-year is the distance light and/or radio waves (not sound) will travel in one year.

1 second = 186,000 (thousand) miles.
1 minute = 11,160,000 (million) miles. Earth to the Sun is only 93,000,000. Venus is 60,000,000 from the Sun. That means that when Venus is on the other side of the sun, it's 153,000,000 miles away from us. That means that our radio signals from Earth (at that time) to the Magellan Spacecraft at Venus took 822.6 seconds to get there (13.7 minutes.) Then another 13.7 minutes for the acknowledgement to get back to Earth. Numerous times we would send commands to the spacecraft, then go home. Then, the answers would reach us on the next shift. When Venus was on this side of the Sun, it just took 2.7 minutes for the signal to get there and 5-1/2 for the round trip.

1 hour = 60 minutes = 669,600,000 miles
24 hours = 16,070,400,000 miles. (The distance a beam of light will travel in one day. Sixteen BILLION 70 million, 400 thousand miles.) I can drive 300 miles in 4-1/2 - 5 hours, lol.
1 week = 112,492,800,000 miles. Further than from here to Arizona, lol.
And, one light-year? 5 Trillion, 849 Billion, 625 million, 600 thousand miles.

So, the Andromeda Galaxy, the nearest large spiral galaxy, is 2.5 MILLION Light-Years from Earth. So, I can't even imagine how aliens could even FIND this little dirtball. I mean, if they have developed space travel to the extent visualized, then that is hundreds of years, maybe thousands at least more advanced than us. And they still have to solve light-speed travel (which they could have done if they're 1,000 years ahead of us.

So, while I want to believe in other civilizations, I don't think they're here yet. I mean, we've only had radio technology for 100 years. And even at the speed of light, radio waves still take ages to get anywhere in space. THat means that the radio and TV signals that are now out in space have yet to reach even the nearest galaxy where there could conceivably be technology that could interpret it. The Andromeda galaxy, visible from the Southern Hemisphere, is 2.5 MILLION light years away from us. 5,849,625,600,000 x 2,500,000. You do the math, lol.

Now, given the age of Earth and the age of the universe (the Earth is relatively new,) Older civilizations could not only exist, they would be thousands of years older and more advanced than humanity on Earth. So, who really knows?
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ErikB
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November 7th, 2023, 4:33 am

I was actually just speculating on what the Futurama writers were trying to do. It's unlikely they would have not been paying attention, so they either deliberately were tweaking the audience by setting up a catch-22 (the Futurama aliens traveled to Futurama Egypt to learn space travel) or, if the Futurama Egyptians already had space travel, they would have had to make first contact with the Futurama aliens. I wasn't making a statement about our real Egyptians.

As for the giant blocks, I saw a documentary once that speculated that they figured out how to cast them rather than having to quarry them and then move them. I don't know how that theory is viewed today.

You seem focused on other galaxies. Why not speculated that intelligent life formed elsewhere in the Milky Way? That cuts down the required distances considerably (87,000 light years if they formed on the opposite side of the Milky Way from us). And if aliens have been around a lot longer, they may have already worked out the faster-than-light problem. I like the way Contact (the movie starring Jodie Foster) addressed the issue. The aliens already had a travel system that acted more like a pneumatic tube setup rather than a drive-on-each-ship system as in Star Trek. The hospital where my mom worked still had a pneumatic tube system in operation when I was a kid. I don't recall whether it was still in operation when I eventually worked there while going to college. Anyway, in Contact the aliens had a bunch of stations scattered around so that new species' radio signals didn't have to travel too far before being detected by the aliens (who presumably also hat faster-than-light communications). In the movie, they supposedly picked up the first broadcasts from the Olympics in Berlin in 1936. However, while looking up the year for this post, I found out that the 1936 broadcast was allegedly closed-circuit! The first open-air broadcast of the Olympics appears to have been later, in Wembley, England, in 1948.


As for transliterating English using ancient Egyptian glyphs, apparently the Ancient Egyptians had neither an "l" sound nor a "v" sound. Modern-day transliterators have apparently taken a cue from oriental and east Indian workarounds. They use "r" for "l" (rorripop instead of lollipop) and "w" for "v" (wollyball instead of vollyball). I knew a woman in college who was from Bangladesh. She got her U.S. citizenship while we were in college. She used "w" for "v". I spoke to her once on the phone after graduation, and she had learned how to pronounce "v" by that time. So, using those substitutions:


Vicky Vette (actually Weeky Wet) I also used the determinative for queen instead of woman given Vicky's rank :smiley:
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Vicky Vette using the alternative for the w, which can be either the quail chick or the coiled rope
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Rokker with the convention of using the arm for "ah", which both my sources for learning Ancient Egyptian dislike since the sounds are actually incorrect
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It occurred to me that Rokker, while not a "king", is listed as being "Chief of Staff" or "Number one". This is the title of an "official" or "noble", so I should have used a different determinative
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Walter Brown (actually Warter Broown) (I think I saw in one of your posts that the B in WalterB stands for Brown)
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ErikB
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November 9th, 2023, 11:41 am

I updated the Mayan calendar meme:

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Also, I noticed that I forgot to replace (gardiners) with the actual link to the website I used to peruse Ancient Egyptian Heiroglyphs: Gardiner's Sign List of Egyptian Hieroglyphs:


https://www.egyptianhieroglyphs.net/gardiners-sign-list



And, Ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs are now a unicode block that appears to also have been based on Gardiner's list. Here are two interesting actual glyphs from his list:

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WalterB
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November 22nd, 2023, 2:45 pm

My question is, when did we stop using words and start using pictures for everything in today's world? I mean, like, everywhere, there are pictures for the buttons you are supposed to press. I really hate that. Most of the time I have to spend 5 minutes trying to figure out where the right button is. So I have to press one just to find out what it does. So, it takes me to a page I don't want. Nope! Next one takes me to a whole different site. Nope! Man! What a PITA!

And, no, I don't have anything better to get upset over, :rotffl:

When did we revert back to cavemen?
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lance_s
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November 23rd, 2023, 9:28 am

WalterB wrote: November 22nd, 2023, 2:45 pm My question is, when did we stop using words and start using pictures for everything in today's world? I mean, like, everywhere, there are pictures for the buttons you are supposed to press. I really hate that. Most of the time I have to spend 5 minutes trying to figure out where the right button is. So I have to press one just to find out what it does. So, it takes me to a page I don't want. Nope! Next one takes me to a whole different site. Nope! Man! What a PITA!

And, no, I don't have anything better to get upset over, :rotffl:

When did we revert back to cavemen?
I've heard a story (can't vouch for its veracity) about a shipment of fragile equipment being sent somewhere. The cartons were all marked with a broken wine glass to indicate the contents are fragile. Trouble is, at the destination, port workers interpreted the picture to mean the contents ARE broken glasses and treated the packages accordingly. When the packages reached their final destination the contents did match the pictures.
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WalterB
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November 23rd, 2023, 11:22 am

That sounds vaguely familiar, lol.

I imagine the pictures save a tad of space and time. The main problem is when they're just too dang small to know what they mean. Some sites give you a little pop-up to tell you.
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ErikB
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November 26th, 2023, 9:56 pm

lance_s wrote: November 23rd, 2023, 9:28 am
WalterB wrote: November 22nd, 2023, 2:45 pm My question is, when did we stop using words and start using pictures for everything in today's world? I mean, like, everywhere, there are pictures for the buttons you are supposed to press. I really hate that. Most of the time I have to spend 5 minutes trying to figure out where the right button is. So I have to press one just to find out what it does. So, it takes me to a page I don't want. Nope! Next one takes me to a whole different site. Nope! Man! What a PITA!

And, no, I don't have anything better to get upset over, :rotffl:

When did we revert back to cavemen?
I've heard a story (can't vouch for its veracity) about a shipment of fragile equipment being sent somewhere. The cartons were all marked with a broken wine glass to indicate the contents are fragile. Trouble is, at the destination, port workers interpreted the picture to mean the contents ARE broken glasses and treated the packages accordingly. When the packages reached their final destination the contents did match the pictures.
I remember a similar story from my youth. Supposedly some Gerber's baby food was donated to a place where the only thing they were used to seeing on jars was what was actually inside the jar. So, they refused to use the food because they thought it was canned baby.
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lance_s
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November 27th, 2023, 10:32 am

ErikB wrote: November 26th, 2023, 9:56 pm
lance_s wrote: November 23rd, 2023, 9:28 am
WalterB wrote: November 22nd, 2023, 2:45 pm My question is, when did we stop using words and start using pictures for everything in today's world? I mean, like, everywhere, there are pictures for the buttons you are supposed to press. I really hate that. Most of the time I have to spend 5 minutes trying to figure out where the right button is. So I have to press one just to find out what it does. So, it takes me to a page I don't want. Nope! Next one takes me to a whole different site. Nope! Man! What a PITA!

And, no, I don't have anything better to get upset over, :rotffl:

When did we revert back to cavemen?
I've heard a story (can't vouch for its veracity) about a shipment of fragile equipment being sent somewhere. The cartons were all marked with a broken wine glass to indicate the contents are fragile. Trouble is, at the destination, port workers interpreted the picture to mean the contents ARE broken glasses and treated the packages accordingly. When the packages reached their final destination the contents did match the pictures.
I remember a similar story from my youth. Supposedly some Gerber's baby food was donated to a place where the only thing they were used to seeing on jars was what was actually inside the jar. So, they refused to use the food because they thought it was canned baby.
Never heard that version!
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WalterB
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November 27th, 2023, 2:45 pm

I remember the story, don't remember when I heard it.
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greggl
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November 27th, 2023, 4:54 pm

I heard the Gerber story as well a long time ago. Never heard if it was actually true. I tend to doubt it though
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ErikB
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November 29th, 2023, 3:03 am

WalterB wrote: November 22nd, 2023, 2:45 pm My question is, when did we stop using words and start using pictures for everything in today's world? I mean, like, everywhere, there are pictures for the buttons you are supposed to press. I really hate that. Most of the time I have to spend 5 minutes trying to figure out where the right button is. So I have to press one just to find out what it does. So, it takes me to a page I don't want. Nope! Next one takes me to a whole different site. Nope! Man! What a PITA!

And, no, I don't have anything better to get upset over, :rotffl:

When did we revert back to cavemen?

As I recall, it seemed to start with text emojis. When you wanted to indicate something was a joke or good news or something, you could make a text smiley face with :-). Then people got creative with the other characters like 8-<. At some point someone decided to use the increasing complexity of mail software and web pages to provide actual graphics like :smiley:. I don't do any social networking in the mainstream venues so I don't have to look at emoji-filled posts very much.




WalterB wrote: November 23rd, 2023, 11:22 am
I imagine the pictures save a tad of space and time. The main problem is when they're just too dang small to know what they mean. Some sites give you a little pop-up to tell you.
The biggest example I can think of where I can see the advantages are actually physical care labels for garments. At first, I was annoyed that they were using more pictures than text. Then I realized that a small tag with an industry-specific set of icons could save a lot of space and eliminate the need for tags in multiple languages. If you don't know what a symbol means, you can look it up online and get the full description of how to care for the garment in a variety of different languages.

I don't see as much value in purely electronic applications. When I was at work, all the Microshit applications started using "The Ribbon", where everything turned into an icon, and the icons weren't organized very well (in my opinion). It bugged the heck out of me and I hope I never have to work with it again. I have managed to keep some of the text menus in my Firefox setup, but Vivaldi is a lost cause in the user interface department on a couple of fronts. At the time I started using Vivaldi, though, it was the only browser I could get to work with Vicky's camshows. I have had to update my Firefox, and it probably would work with the camshows now, but I have too many links in Vivaldi now.
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